| MP |
I see, did your mother ever work? |
 |
| RW |
Yes, she worked at Illinois Soldiers and Sailors School. Then she-let's see when I
started school, she quit to be home. She never worked anymore after that. |
|
| MP |
What did she do there? |
|
| RW |
She worked in the laundry? |
|
| MP |
Would you tell me what you know abut the Duff family? |
|
| RW |
Well not too much. Fay and my brother-Fay and John's grandfather was a flagman for the
railroad. The old Alton and then it became the B and O [Baltimore and Ohio] and then the G M and O [Gulf, Mobile and Ohio]. Now it's the Illinois Central Gulf. He had one of these little shanties downtown Normal, and when the trains come by, he would go out and hold the sign up for the traffic to stop. Known as a flagman back in those days. I didn't know much about him. I used to see him and speak to him, and he would come up here to the house to visit with my mother and father. Father would cut his hair, but being a child you don't pay any attention to older people. But he was a brother to Peter Duff who owns the property up on 107 West Popular, and [Peter] was a carpenter. So he worked-I think he helped build Mount Pisgah Baptist Church. What other projects here in the city's history I don't know, but he worked on quite a few of them here, and I didn't know him because he died in 1921. I believe it says in the Bible. He was an uncle to my oldest brother and sister, Fay and John. That's how I'm involved with that family. Course back in those days most families were-my family and the Duff family, Dabneys, and the Ansons-they were all close. Friends. They socialized together and you know-cards and yard parties, etc. So back in those days, they were all rather close, close-knit. But the Duff family, they have been here just about as long as my family has been. I don't know just when they came here. Part of them come out of Kentucky. The Duff part came out of Kentucky. Mrs. Duff, I think, her maiden name was Green. I saw some papers where she came out of Virginia. What years, I don't know. It might be in that Bible there, but my mother, like I said came here from Georgetown, Kentucky. |
|
| MP |
Did she ever talk about her family? |
|
| RW |
Yes, she used to mention different things. She had-let's see, there were-I still have
one aunt living in Norfolk, Virginia, and two passed and my mother. That's three and one uncle. That's what five. That's six in that family, and of course they were born in-my grandfather was born in Georgetown, Kentucky. He was Grandfather Wilson, my mother's father. He was-he wasn't a slave. His mother was-well, she was white. |
|
| MP |
His mother was white. |
|
| RW |
Yes. He was born in the Pratt Hotel. His grandfather and grandmother owned a hotel
there and in Georgetown. He was born there and was raised by them. |
|
| MP |
Oh is that right? |
|
| RW |
Yes, and his father I understand was a West Indian slave, there in the north part of
Georgetown. I don't know what happened to his mother. I don't know whether she-they were out of-the Pratts were out of Boston. I don't know whether she was sent back to Boston or what. I never knew whatever happened to her, but he was not used as a slave. He was born and raised right there in the hotel, and in fact, when he married my grandmother, they lived there in the hotel, and my oldest aunt was born in the hotel. The Pratts did not believe in slavery. |
|
| MP |
Oh, that's really interesting that they were able to maintain that kind of family
situation in Kentucky which was a slave state. |
|
| RW |
Well, well they were people of-what would you say? People of means. |
|
| MP |
Oh yes. Yes. |
|
| RW |
So they probably held some clout. So they probably didn't, as you would say, mess with
them. |
|
| MP |
That's right. That's right, money-I understand. |
|
| MP |
No. |
|
| RW |
They were racehorse people. I had two second cousins to me, John and Brack Clay. Of
course, they looked like white men, but they were born in the same situation as my grandfather, and there was also a Hen- a Senator Henry Clay who goes way back to around seventeen something. |
|
| MP |
Oh, yes. |
|
| RW |
Connection between the Pratts and the Clays. Of course, they naturally would not-if the
laws were proper back then, my grandfather should have inherited the hotel after his grandparents died. The city took it over. A fire station sits there now. |
|
| MP |
Oh is that right. They just took it? |
|
| RW |
Oh yeah. |
|
| MP |
Yes. |
|
| RW |
Of course, the Clays, John and Brack Clay, should have inherited the Dixie-anna Racehorse Farm if the laws had been. Of course, whoever their parents or whatever died away, it was just taken and done with. Whatever they did with them, the farm is still down there, but I don't know what the name of it is. So those are things that are kind of sad. [Reginald wanted it noted that this story had not been confirmed as of 1/24/2002] Course my mother, as I said, came to Bloomington. |
|
|
| MP |
Do you know how she happened to come to Bloomington? |
|
| RW |
There was a job here. Her sister-oldest sister applied for a job and received it and then decided she didn't want to come up here. So my mother said she wanted to. So she came and took the job and been here ever since, until she passed. |
|
| MP |
Was that the job at Soldiers and Sailors? |
|
| RW |
No, that was a different job. Couldn't have been anything but house work. But she
wanted to come up here. She never liked Georgetown, Kentucky. She came here. She never left Bloomington-Normal. Said it was a good place to raise a family. She always-my mother was the type of person that had a lot of what they called mother-wit and foresight. She said that there was nothing here for young people, but it was good to raise children here. She didn't care to try to raise a family in a city. She would have loved to live in Chicago. Back in those days, Chicago was Chicago then. It was much kinder then it is now, but she remained here with my father, and she didn't try to encourage him to leave or anything. She felt it was better to live here-at least until the children were grown. But I guess in the meantime they got older and... |
|
| MP |
So that was a little difficult to pick up and leave then. |
|
| RW |
They remained right here, and now I'm still here. I've had big plans of leaving here,
but I guess I'll be here until the end. So I don't know what... |
|
| MP |
Mary, you want to ask...? |
|
| MW |
What about any, would you tell me about any other Black families who lived in Normal. |
|
| RW |
Well the Dabney family. They lived down on the corner of Cherry and Oak Street. The
house has been torn down. The property is still there, and they still own the property. And he was, of course, a barber here in Normal. He had a barbershop down on Beaufort Street in Normal. The main street-one of the main streets of the business district. |
|
| MP |
Did his business thrive very well? |
|
| RW |
I understand it did before my time. He had I think two or three chairs in there. And
he did, he stayed quite busy. The Calimese brothers also had a barbershop in downtown Normal just several doors west of Mr. Dabney's barbershop. The Barton family they live on Cherry street in the three hundred block. One of the girls is living there now. She's... |
|
| MP |
Oh, is that right? What's her name? |
|
| RW |
Dorothy Stockstell is her name now. |
|
| MP |
What's the address? |
|
| RW |
Well, if you could walk straight through, you would walk right into their back door from
here. It would be-this is [address omitted]. |
|
| MP |
And what street? |
|
| RW |
Cherry. Two blocks back. |
|
| MP |
Cherry, and her name is Dorothy Stocksdale? |
|
| RW |
Stockstell, yeah. |
|
| MP |
Now, are you going to tell me something about them? |
|
| RW |
Well they, they've been back there for on Cherry Street for many years. Most of them are
passing away. They have a brother, Wilbur Barton, that went to Illinois State Normal University then, and he was a quite a basketball player. Course he lives in Indianapolis now. And he was a principal and a schoolteacher over in Indianapolis, and he's retired now. They probably would be interesting for you to talk to, also. Then up the street, farther east on Cherry, there were two Black families that I remember. There was one that her name was Mrs. Walton. She owned quite a bit of property here in Normal. I don't know where she came here from. She always referred to my father as Cousin Walter. I don't know whether they were actually related or not, but she was a ex-slave, very fair complexion. And she owned where she lived on Cherry [and] the house next door. She owned a house up here on Linden and Willow right up here on the corner and then the lot next door to it which has a house on it now. |
|
| MP |
So she was quite well-to-do would you say? |
|
| RW |
Well, I guess so. I don't know how she acquired the properties. Again, I was a child
and cared less, you know. |
|
| RW |
I had other things to do. That's why I was saying, it's too bad you didn't get here when my father and some of those people were living so they could really give you the history. |
|
| MP |
That's right. |
|
| RW |
All I could do is give you sketches. |
|
| MP |
Remember what you can. |
|
| RW |
Josephine might could give you a little more 'cause she's only six years older than I.
Possibly she can give you a little more, but next door to Mrs. Walton a party lived by the name of Lewis. They were Black and they rented from Mrs. Walton. Then they separated, and Mrs. Lewis later on married a man named Mr. John Caldwell. And they lived there until they both-they finally bought the property from Mrs. Walton, and they lived there until they both passed. Of course Mrs. Caldwell was, I guess, you can say my baby-sitter while my mother worked. I used to go over there and stay with her until my mother come home from work till she quit work. And of course, after that I continued to go over there. And she didn't have any children, but she would take us kids in and bake cookies and that type of thing for us. We just had a big time over there. Take us in the car and all that type of thing. And on up the street a little farther there was another Black family, the Sanders. They moved away from here now. Margie Dean, who lives in Bloomington, she was-her maiden name Sanders. She lived there, and her sister. |
|
| MP |
Margie Dean. |
|
| RW |
Margie Dean, she lives in Bloomington. Well, as a child she lived up there on Cherry
Street with her father and mother. She just lost her father here, too, about a month ago I think. |
|
| MW |
What's her father's name? |
|
| RW |
He's living in East Saint Louis, Bill Sanders. So they lived there. We lived here. No
other Blacks lived on this street except us at that time. Farther west on Willow, on the corner of Fell and Willow, there was a family on the northeast corner. There was the Everett Thomas family. Next door to the east on Willow Street there was a George Thomas. They were half-brothers. George Thomas was a blacksmith. He had a blacksmith shop here in Normal down on Linden Street. Catty-corner across the street on Fell Avenue was a small house, and next to it a large house belonged to the Simon family. They were Black. It's an apartment building on all the property now. Around the corner on Locust Street off of Fell was where Mr. Carter Harris lived, and Luther B. Anson and his first wife lived there with him and kind of took care of him, the house, etc. I guess his wife-Mr. Harris's wife.... Mr. Harris, in fact, worked at the university as a janitor. They named a room over there after him. |
|
| MP |
Oh, yes. I think I've heard that name. |
|
| RW |
The Carter Harris Room or something. Yes, so then the property became Mr. Anson's after
Mr. Harris died. Then going back east on Locust, there was some Negroes, or Blacks. ([laughs) I don't really care for "Black." There was a small house that belonged to-her name was...? It was Fannie Duff's mother's house. And her name, I didn't know her. She died many years ago. Then a couple doors east on Locust was the Headley house. |
|
| MP |
Headley, would you spell that? |
|
| RW |
H-E-A-D-L-E-Y, I believe. |
|
| MP |
All right, yes. |
|
| RW |
Filmore. Mr. and Mrs. Filmore Headley. Now Mrs. Headley was a-she was related to-well,
she was a daughter to this Green that had the little house, and she was-she would be a sister to Fannie Duff. So Mrs. Headley-how would you say that, Mrs. Headley Green or Mrs. Green Headley?-was related to the Duffs. |
|
| MP |
You say she kept students? |
|
| RW |
Yes she kept students? |
|
| MP |
What kind of students? |
|
| RW |
Girls. Black girls. |
|
| MP |
College students? I see, yes. |
|
| RW |
Oh, I'm sorry. I'm so used to these things around here thinking you know what I'm talking about. |
|
| MP |
That's all right. That's all right. That's all right. |
|
| RW |
Mrs. Headley kept girls-Black student college girls. Mrs. Simon or Miss Simon, I don't
remember which, but anyway they help college girls. These are all Black because they had to stay in private homes then. Mrs. Thomas-Everett Thomas kept girls. The George Thomases she kept girls at times, and then she would take boys because they couldn't stay at Fell Hall or Smith Hall. Smith Hall was for boys back then. And sometimes my mother would keep a couple of girls here. And there was some other Blacks that lived there on Locust Street, but I don't remember their names. My sister probably will. Oh, there was another Black family for many years lived up on North Fell. John Williams family. Of course, they're both dead now. And they had two, three children. They're all gone. I don't know where they are. |
|
| MP |
Was there a family that lived down the street from Mrs. Calimese, a Black family? |
|
| RW |
Yes there was. |
|
| MP |
What was that family? |
|
| RW |
I think their name was Miller. |
|
| MP |
Miller, I see. |
|
| RW |
Yes, down there on the corner. |
|
| MP |
Do you know anything about this house on what is now Gregory? No not Gregory. What is
this street where a Black, the first house that was supposed to been built by a Black person? |
|
| RW |
Louise Jones. Yes, that was the Malone property. |
|
| MP |
Would you speak about that, what you know about that? |
|
| RW |
I don't know much about it. All I know is the Malones lived over there. They owned-the
house burned. Kids set it on fire. The relationship of Louise Jones and the Malones, I don't know where.. They are related there some way. I don't know whether Mrs. Jones was a Malone or what. But they owned where the house set, down to the corner of Dale and Kingsley and back to Main Street with the exception-you know where that restaurants sits there on the corner? Well they didn't own that, but they owned the next lot to it. One or two lots. Quite a piece of land in there, but I don't know what happened to that property. Whether it still belongs to.? Louise was trying to salvage it. |
|
| MP |
Now where is Louise? |
|
| RW |
Chicago. |
|
| MP |
She's in Chicago right? |
|
| MW |
Do you know how to get in touch with her? |
|
| RW |
No I don't. Would J. B. know? |
|
| MP |
Who is J. B.? |
|
| RW |
J. B. [Ray] is the man that we used when we were doing the (unintelligible). |
|
| MP |
I need to talk to him, too. |
|
| MW |
Yes, he still rents the house over there back of Miller Park. |
|
| RW |
He possibly would know how to get in touch with her. |
|
| MP |
Oh yes. Tell me, this Duff house on Popular Street, does anyone live there now? |
|
| RW |
No, it's empty. I'm selling-well, I sold all the furniture. More or less odds and ends
in there now. |
|
| MP |
What, are there any odds and ends, other odds and ends there that may have historic value for us, any papers? Or you've pretty much taken that out? |
|
| RW |
I've got the deed here. |
|
| MP |
The deed to the house? Do you think...? Would you permit me to Xerox that if you find
it? |
|
| RW |
I don't whether it's here or whether it's-pretty sure I got it. I'm trying to think
whether the attorney had it. I'll go back there and see if I got it back. |
|
| MW |
You also mentioned some pictures about, papers about part of the Duff family coming from
Virginia. What kind of papers...? |
|
| RW |
Pictures? Oh papers, oh, I threw them out. |
|
| MP |
You threw them out? Ohhhh, Mr. Whittaker. You threw all of those out? You don't have
any? |
|
| RW |
Well, you see, there's no family. |
|
| MP |
There was no indication of importance? |
|
| RW |
I didn't want them. The family-when Julia died-my sister [Fay] is out of it mentally. So
no need of saving them for her. My brother in Maryland [John], he doesn't have any need for them. There's no grandchildren or nothing so the attorney said all those papers pertaining to their uncle, Thomas Green, and those things, he said just dispose of them. He said I want to get the stuff out of my way. |
|
| MP |
So there's nothing else there now? |
|
| RW |
In the way of papers? |
|
| MP |
Papers or any other kinds of artifacts? |
|
| MW |
The papers had tremendous historical value. Tremendous. |
|
| MP |
If only you had thought to call the library or something, anything. |
|
| RW |
Wait a minute here, see what I got back here. |
|
| MP |
All right, all right. Were there any Negroes organized into groups or how would you
say. |
|
| RW |
Like little clubs and things? |
|
| MP |
Masonic groups, social clubs or... |
|
| RW |
They had the Masons, the Masonic Lodge. That was Bloomington and Normal. |
|
| M |
Any social clubs? |
|
| RW |
Yes. |
|
| MP |
Would you speak about those? |
|
| RW |
Three C Club which was Bloomington-Normal. My mother was one of the first members of
that when they organized, and there was a Progressive Club, and... |
|
| MP |
Do you know anything about a Chauffeurs' Club? |
|
| RW |
I don't know, my brother was a-drove for the Stevenson family. John my brother out in
Maryland. Yeah. He drove for Adlai Stevenson's mother, Helen Stevenson. |
|
| MP |
Oh, is that right? How long did he do that? |
|
| RW |
Oh, I think he started that job when he was seventeen years old. |
|
| MP |
Is that right. |
|
| RW |
What year, I couldn't say. He quit around 1934 or somewhere along in there. |
|
| MP |
So that was Governor Adlai Stevenson's father or mother? |
|
| RW |
Mother. |
|
| MP |
Is that right? |
|
| RW |
That's where Alverta Duff died-I mean worked. |
|
| MP |
Alverta worked for the Stevenson family, too? |
|
| RW |
Worked for the Stevenson family. |
|
| MP |
There must have been some papers about the Stevensons there. |
|
| RW |
I got some pictures in the bedroom of the governor. |
|
| MP |
You have? In your room-where now, in this house? |
|
| RW |
Back in my room. |
|
| MW |
Yes, didn't you say that there was some pictures, and you called them and they came and
got some pictures? |
|
| RW |
Yeah, I got some more. |
|
| MP |
Who? Oh, the Stevenson family. Oh, they did? |
|
| RW |
Timothy Ives, which is-what would he be to Adlai? The nephew, yeah, he... |
|
| MP |
So we could get some photographs of those later on, do you think? I can take pictures
of the photographs you have? Of the Stevenson, yes. |
|
| RW |
I don't remember just which ones I got back there. Of the governor I think and-do you
want me to go back there and get them? |
|
| MP |
Do you mind please? I'm sorry. |
|
| RW |
No, I don't mind. |
|
| MP |
Thank you, thank you. |
|
| RW |
Got barricades up trying to keep the dogs out. Are you afraid of them? |
|
| MP |
Well, if they don't bite me. |
|
| RW |
They haven't anyone yet. |
|
| MP |
Okay. |
|
| RW |
One of them is just a little poodle and the bigger one....
(Mary Williams and Mildred Pratt hold a whispered conversation) |
|
| End Side A |
|
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|
