Keep the Heritage Alive!

Reginald Whittaker & Josephine Whittaker Samuels

Speaking about life in Normal, Illinois

Narrators: Reginald Whittaker and Josephine Whittaker Samuels
Interviewer: Mildred Pratt
Date: Unknown
Topic: Life in Normal
Side A; Tape 1
JS It was more like transportation at that time, you know.
RW And at that time there were quite a few Negroes living in Normal.
JS All up and down on Locust Street.
MP That's what I wanted to ask you-that will be the next question. So you would way that it was necessity because there were quite a few Black people in Normal and transportation was a bit of a problem. Right?
JS I think so.
MP All right, would you just name the Black families that lived in Normal while you were growing up?
JS The Rosses.
RW The Rosses, I forgot about, on Locust.
JS And then there was a family of Browns on Locust-that's East Locust. And then coming down to the corner here was John Robert Duff. The grandfather of Fay and John.
MP John Robert Duff was the grandfather of Peter Duff?
RW No.
JS They were brothers.
MP Oh, John Duff and Peter Duff were brothers? All right.
RW He lived right over here on the corner, Oak and Locust.
JS They've got an apartment house sitting there now.
MP Yes.
JS And then on farther across the tracks there was a family of Greens. Then the Headleys.
RW Crawfords. Ansons.
JS The Ansons. I believe there was a family that lived there by the name of Bradshaw.
RW And over on Willow Street there was George Thomas, who was a blacksmith. Everett Thomas, his brother, who was a blacksmith also.
JS Then the Simons too. Don't forget them. They lived right across...
MP Now was the Simons the one-the man who built the house over on Kingsley.
RW No.
MP That was a different Simons?
RW That was the Malone family.
JS Simon Malone.
MP That's right, Simon Malone. That's right.
RW No, the Simon family lived on Fell between Locust and Willow.
JS They lived right across the street from the church. And I believe Reverend Simon was the minister there at the Methodist Church there.
RW Oh, was he? The only ones I remember was Kate and-what was her sister's name? Her last was Moore. That's the only two I remember living in that house. I didn't know the mother and father.
MP Now do the Simons have a store?
JS No, that's the Ansons.
MP The Ansons had the little store. Now, you didn't mention the Calimeses.
RW Well, we haven't got that far yet. We're right in this area. And then there was the Deans, lived around on Cyprus and Fell.
MP Are these... this Dean related to Kathryn Dean?
RW Yes, her husband.
MP This was her husband's family.
RW Wasn't it?
JS That's where he and his first wife Roberta lived. The Rowleys lived next door.
RW Yeah, they lived on Fell between Cyprus and Poplar.
JS And then you know the Pattersons used to live on the corner of Poplar and Fell. Oh, there was Eli White, too. He lived on Cyprus.
RW Yes, Eli White. He was a policeman in Bloomington. His daughter is still living.
MP Is that right? What's her name?
RW Jacquelyn. She lives in Chicago. And then, of course, the Duff on Poplar. And then up on Fell, north, the Williams-John Williams family. Mrs. Williams was a Crawford.
JS The Crawfords lived up there too.
RW Did they?
JS Yes the father and mother and some of the.
RW The Meadreds lived out here at one time back in those days.
MP Oh, did they? I know several people have mentioned that name. Someone mentioned the Meadreds.
RW Yes, that was Boone, wasn't it? Boone Meadreds. Lived up on Linden Street, didn't he? Linden and Cyprus or Poplar up in that area somewhere. And who else was there?
JS And we had the Burkharts right up here on Linden and Willow.
RW Yeah, Burkharts. Then the Calimeses lived over there on-what was that?
JS Let's see. That was University and Church Street.
RW Then down the street from them on the next corner south was a family of Millers.
MP Now, tell me, was that the family.... Did they have some children who were mentally retarded or something?
RW Yes.
MP Yes, Mrs. Calimese mentioned something about that to me.
JS Their grandmother was named Lee, I believe.
MP Oh, their grandmother was named Lee?
JS She lived there and Mrs. Miller and she had twins-twin girls and something was wrong.
RW On the corner of University and Virginia, the northeast corner, there was a Black family that lived there. They sold vegetables and fruits. Do you remember their name?
JS That wasn't the Scrivners, was it?
RW Well, I thought they lived in that house. All I can remember is the Scrivners living up on Linden back down in that-it's a street. It's Carpenter Street.
JS Well, it seems like they were related to-was the Mrs.-what was her name? Every time you seen her she had on of those bonbons in her jaw.
RW I know who you're talking about, but I can't call her name.
JS I can see her just as plain.
RW Let's see-oh, the Stevensons lived on Apple Street. They were related to Mrs. Calimese, weren't they?
JS Related to Mrs.-that was Elaine's grandfather. Elaine and Jordan Grigsby's grandfather.
JS (inaudible answer)
MP All right.
RW He was a lodge member. I remember he would call here and Dad would say, "Oh, Sandy," and I used to get that confused with "Santa".
MP Oh, you thought it was Santa Claus.
RW Yeah. Sandy, they called him. He had a nickname. I don't know what his real name was.
JS That was Clara's father. Clara Anson.
RW Oh, that's how that went. And who else?
JS Williams. Remember Billy Williams?
RW Oh, yes. Billy Williams. Now, their, mother was what-a sister to Caribel and Kathryn? Grace Williams.
JS Now, I don't know whether she was...
RW Well they were related some way or another. They lived on Main Street.
JS Or they're cousins. Kathryn[Dean] and Caribel [Washington]-they were cousins to Gwen [Samuels]. Now, what-I don't know. I know they were related.
RW And let's see. There were some others.
JS Around the corner was the Malones.
RW Oh, yes. The Malone family on Kingsley.
MP Yes. Now was it just the one house. What was his name? You'd mentioned his first name.
JS Simon.
MP Simon Malone. Now do you know his wife's name?
JS No I don't. I remember there was one girl named Clara Malone, and I remember they called one Ellis. Although, whether they were sisters and brothers...
MP You don't know.
JS I know the two girls were sisters...
MP But they all lived in that house though.
RW The Malones and those Millers on University Street were related, weren't they?
JS I don't remember. She had relatives-you know, Mrs. Jones, Louise Jones's mother, was a cousin to the Malones and I know Mrs. Miller used to come over. In fact, she stayed there at the house after Mrs. Jones died there. She stayed there for a while because they kept students. I think she died.
RW Now, those families, we're going back in the early thirties.
MP So that's what you're referring to-the thirties, the early thirties, these were the Black families that lived here.
RW Yes. There's been others. Now Oscar Waddell's mother and father lived there on the corner of Fell and Locust at one time.
MP Oh, is that right? What were their names?
JS Waddell.
RW Waddell. Oscar Waddell.
JS I think their dad was named Arthur, wasn't he?
RW I don't know, but that came later. What-the late thirties?
JS Oh, yes, it had to be the thirties.
RW Around [19]38-9. Somewheres in there. And who else lived around here later on?
JS Mr. Harris, he used to live here, too.
RW Carter Harris?
JS Carter Harris.
RW Yes. Well, he lived there at Ansons. He owned that house.
MP Did most of these people whom you are referring to now-did most of them own the houses in which they lived?
RW The majority of them did. Yes.
JS There was a family of Daniels that lived there on West Willow [109] across the street from the Thomases. Daniels and then Mrs. Krem. I don't know whether they were sisters.
RW Carter Harris worked at the university as a janitor.
MP Oh, he did. Was this in the 1930s?
RW You know they named a room or building or something after him.
MP This was in the 1930s when he worked there?
RW Well, he retired from there. Yes, it would be in the thirties, early thirties.
MP They named a building for him?
RW Yes. It's a building over there or room or something named after him.
MP Carter-what was his full name now?
RW Carter Harris.
MP Carter Harris.
JS Then there's the Carter Harris trophy too that they gave to the...
MP Oh, there's a scholarship or something?
RW Could be. He left some money. When he died, he left some money to the university.
MP I think that's the one. There is a building named for-a green that's named for a Black person, too, I understand. That's about it?
RW As far as I can remember.
JS You did get the Burkharts in there, too, didn't you.
RW Yes.
JS Frank Burkhart.
MP Now what was the relationship between Jesse Fell and Black people's property ownership? Did most people buy their property from Jesse Fell, do you know?
RW Yeah, I know the Duff property was bought from him.
MP They bought that from Fell.
JS Seemed like he saw to it that he employed quite a few.
MP Of the.
JS Black people.
MP What did they do for him?
RW Labor.
MP Do you have any recollection of anybody ever saying that Jesse Fell's house was used as a part of the underground railroad to harbor slaves? Do you remember anyone saying that? I'm reading a book now that was written by a woman-it's her diary-who worked at ISU. And she mentions that. Do you remember anybody ever saying anything?
RW I don't recall myself. I don't know what his relationships to Blacks were.
MP That's what I was wondering too.
RW Other than working for him.
JS Well, you know, I wonder if there was something to that when you think about it because like Mr. Barton-Dorothy's [Dorothy Barton Stockstell] and Bill's [Wilbur Barton], their grandfather came from one of the Carolinas, either North or South Carolina, and it seemed it was Jesse Fell that brought him here. You know there could be something to that.
MP They said according to this record, when his wife was away quite often, and that she used some of the rooms for runaway slaves and I just thought you may have heard someone say something about that.
JS Abraham Lincoln used to meet there. He and Fell were very good friends.
MP Yes, and so did any of the people whose names you mentioned now work directly in the home of the Fell's as domestics?
RW I don't know. (unintelligible)
JS And you know, back then and for the longest, you couldn't get Alberta and them to talk about the Stevensons. Just kind of.
MP Do you think that-you know, this is true, for example, with the people who work for royalty? They kind of have to sign some kind of statement that they will not divulge information. And I wonder if there was some kind of unwritten agreement that they may have had.
RW Could have been or it just could have been-people back in those days that worked out in private families were more or less, you could say, a sort of a profession within itself, and they had ethics that they followed. 'Cause I remember we took Caribel's daughter-in-law- she's a reporter-up to talk to Alberta about Adlai when he was running for president. And-well, he had died, and she was down here to write a story about the funeral and all, and we took her up to talk to Alberta. She was very reluctant.
MP Is that right?
RW Yes. She talked a little but not too much.
MP I think that your explanation makes a great deal of sense. I think that may very well be the reason, you know, that they had that kind of...
RW They didn't want any of that coming back to the family that your maid said so-and-so and so-and-so or this was reported by so-and-so that works for so-and-so. It was a means of protecting their job, I would say.
MP I think you're right. Absolutely.
RW It's just an assumption on my part.
MP Yes, but I can understand. It makes a great deal of sense to see that as a reason.
JS But there sure would have been some nice history.
MP Yes. Absolutely.
RW Now this Mrs.-did you want to talk about-you've got about all you want on my mother?
MP Yes. I think, unless there's something you want to tell me something about.
RW No. There wasn't anything I wanted to tell you. I didn't know whether you wanted to ask some more or if you're pretty much through with that.
JS Mother.
MP Your mother did that. And she pretty much took care of the business matters?
JS She would take care of the business matters.
MP And what would you say was your father's basic function in the home? To earn money?
RW He was the head of the family and the breadwinner.
MP And the quiet disciplinarian, huh?
RW Yes.
JS That was really something nice. They were together on that. He would say, "What does you mother say about that?" or "Ask your mother."
MP He had a great deal of respect for her abilities. Would you say to your knowledge-this is difficult to answer, I know-that this was pretty much the role of the father and mother in most of the homes. That the mother pretty much looked after the children and made the basic decisions about them?
JS I believe so because very few of the mothers worked at that time. Seemed like the fathers they were going to be the breadwinners, and the mother was to take care of the home and the children.
MP Yes, and there was pretty much a general understanding then?
JS And then they would also look out for the neighbors' children, too. They'd see that things went correctly because they didn't have all this delinquency and stuff that's going on now.
MP Yes. I know what you're saying. Well.
RW Mrs. Walton, that we've mention over here on Cherry Street-I don't know how a person could get anything on her. It's been so long. But she was a slave.
MP Is that right?
JS Her first name was Chlora.
MP Chlora? Spell, please.
JS C-H-L-O-R-A.
MP Chlora Walton was a slave? Is that right?
JS Her husband was named John.
MP And what's the address now?
RW You know where Mr. Ross lives?
MP Yes. Cephas Ross.
RW Straight behind his house was her home. And she owned the property next to her where the Caldwells lived.
JS I guess that number would have been 408. Mrs. Caldwell's house-she owned that house, too-was 410.
RW And she owned this property up on the corner of Linden and Willow. And the empty lot next door. Of course, there's a house on it now. She owned that. I understand there was some other property here in Normal she owned.
MP What was her husband's name?
JS His name was John Walton.
MP How did they-they had quite a bit of money?
JS Evidently, they must have.
RW Don't know. And she was a very light-complected lady. I don't know where she came from.
MP When did she die?
RW Back in the [19]30s. Around [19]31, [19]32, or [19]33, in that area.
JS It was in the summertime, I remember.
MP How did you know that she had been a slave?
JS She told us.
MP Is that right? What did she tell you? Can you remember? Just recollect.
JS We were talking about slavery, and she said when she was a girl-I guess, shortly after that they freed them, you know-that they were slaves. And I asked her about did they whip them, and she said, "Yes."
MP And you don't know anything of how she happened to have come here.
JS No, I don't. I was trying to think...
RW Arlene's still living in Jacksonville.
MP In Jacksonville. Is that the one you told me about? That's the one you told me we should go down and see and visit and talk with her?
RW Yes.
MP That's the one.
RW If we could find out where she lives and what her married name is.
MP I wonder who would know.
JS Marcella.
RW I called her but never could get any answer at her home. I've got her number. I had it. I lost it.
MP Marcella's number. Who was Marcella now?
JS She knew Arlene. She lived in Jacksonville.
MP Who would know?
RW I would imagine most any of those Negroes from down there would know.
MP She lives in Jacksonville, right?
RW I don't know if she does now or not. What was her name-Marcella what?
JS She was Marcella Moore, and she married Bubby Hunter. She'd be Marcella Hunter.
MP Oh, that would be her name now?
JS Wait a minute. She married-Moore was her maiden name. Hunter was her married. Then she had a second marriage.
RW I've forgotten what it is. I called Bob Gaston and he...
JS 'Cause he was married to her sister.
RW He told me her name now.
MP Would he know?
RW Yeah, he should know where she lives.
MP Oh, is that right?
RW He should. I don't know whether they stay in touch anymore or not since.
MP Now, his daughter lives down in Springfield now doesn't she?
RW Someone told me she lives here now.
JS Who?
RW Jewel.
MP Oh, she's moved back here?
JS She's moved back here?
RW That's what I heard.
MP Why don't I call Mr. Gaston, and ask him if he knows a Marcella whose mother was named Walton, how's that?
RW No, no. Marcella just knew her.
JS She knew Arlene Walton.
MP Now, Arlene is the one who lives in Jacksonville?
RW Yes. She's been married. She lived in Detroit for a number of years. Her husband died, and she moved back to Jacksonville which was her home.
JS But she's originally a Walton-Mrs. Walton's granddaughter-great-granddaughter.
MP So Marcella is...
RW Marcella's just a friend.
MP Who would likely know.
RW Yes.
MP And Mr. Gaston knows Marcella.
RW Marcella would be a sister-in-law to Robert Gaston.
MP I'll check with him. So this woman you know-this is really interesting. Now we ought to be able to find her name in the directory, this Mrs. Walton in the city directory.
RW If we can get her married name.
MP Oh, no. I'm speaking about this Mrs.-what's the women who was the slave?
JS Chlora.
RW Oh, you're talking about her. Oh.
MP Chlora Walton's name should be in the city directory. But the point is how we could do any tracing? We may be able to find some city records or something. Do you know where she worked? Did she work outside the home?
RW I've never known her to work.
MP Did here husband work?
JS He had died.
MP Oh, you never saw him?
JS I never saw him. It's raining.
MP This is fascinating that she was a slave. And she spoke about it.
RW Yes, and they owned this property in here Normal.
MP She may have very well been a runaway slave just like this man, Malone, you know. The story is he came here in chains. He was a runaway slave.
RW And she always called my father "Cousin" Walter.
JS Always called him Cousin Walter.
MP Cousin Walter?
RW And I don't know whether they were related or not.
JS He never did say.
MP But you know-were they about the same-no, they weren't about the same age.
JS No, no. She was much older.
MP She was much older. But you know, there was a tendency for-there is a tendency, and if she was a slave that would be the case, for them to refer to anybody who was a friend just as a cousin. They did that, and I don't know whether that was the basis or whether they were in fact related.
RW Well, that's it. I don't know whether they knew-Whittakers and she knew one another down south or what.
MP Your brother John may know?
RW No.
MP He wouldn't know?
RW I doubt it, but you can make a note to ask him.
MP Isn't this really fascinating? Now do you know any other people who said they were slaves or their relatives?
RW No. Outside of the Malones, Mr. Malone over on Kingsley. The only reason we know about her is she was my first-that's where I would go until my mother got off work.
MP She was your baby-sitter. Yes.
RW To me she was old then. And I hadn't started school yet. But, of course, they looked old in those days. She could have been forty years old, but she wore the long dresses and...
JS But you could see she was a fine looking woman.
RW But her granddaughter, I don't know what kind of shape she is in. How old would Arlene be? About sixty something? Getting close to seventy?
JS She should be like sixty-five or sixty-six years old.
MP Do you remember what church Mrs. Walton attended?
JS Just like the rest of us, she'd go down to.
End Side A; Tape 1
Side B; Tape 1
MP She may attend one of the Black churches there-the Methodist or Christian church in Jacksonville, and that may be a way one might trace her.
RW The granddaughter?
MP Yes.
RW Oh, we can get her easy. It's just a matter of finding out her married name. I knew it once, but of course forgot it.
MP Once you know her married name there's no trouble finding her, right?
RW No. She's down there. She was working at the state mental hospital down there in Jacksonville.
JS Seemed like she worked at both hospitals-the regular hospital and then she'd leave there and go to the...
MP Well, do you think that if I called the hospital and just asked for Arlene, ask about Arlene-did they have an Arlene who worked there?
RW That would be a long shot. Get ahold of Gaston and get Marcella's last name. Powell was her last name, I believe. Powell or Powers.
MP Marcella Powers?
RW I think so. 'Cause I was in the directory department, which was on my floor at work, and one of the girls was in there. And they had a Jacksonville book, and there were two numbers for Powers. We'll just use the word "Powers" for now. And it had M. Powers. They always put a woman's name mostly as the initial, M. Then it had another. And I called both numbers and never did get it. There were only two in the book. And I never did get an answer. I called in the evening.
JS I understand she's living in Springfield.
RW Oh, she's moved to Springfield? Well, now, I've talked to the boy. Bob's boy.
JS Gary?
RW Yeah, and he said-Gat was there. We call Robert Gaston "Gat." He was there, but he didn't put me on with him. He just turned around to ask him. And I said, "Is she still in Jacksonville?" "Well, I think so," he said. That was the answer I got.
MP So the house in which she lived has been torn down now?
RW No. Mrs. Walton?
MP Mrs. Walton.
RW No.
JS It's still there.
MP Who lives there now?
RW I don't know. White people.
MP Somebody has bought it.
RW And I don't think there's been any additions put on it or anything. There's been some siding put on it.
MP Then they might let me go in and take a photograph of that house, right?
RW I don't know.
MP Now, let me get the address again.
JS That would be 408 East Cherry.
MP All right. I'm going to try...
JS Wonder what happened to those pictures they had. She had a picture of her family. Sure had a good-looking family. Her picture, Sophie's, Mrs. Anna Gaston, you know, that was her daughter who lived in Freeport. She's got some more relatives if we knew where they were. Roberta and Margaret and William.
RW What was John's son's name? Raymond.
JS Raymond. And he had a sister, too.
RW He did?
JS Yeah. Let's see, what was her name? Was it Marian? Good-looking. She lived in New York.
RW Somebody said that Raymond was out in Elgin or somewhere, and then somebody said they thought he went out west.
JS I heard he was in Kansas City, Kansas.
RW Kansas City?
JS Somebody seen him on the street. He taught school or something there. He was so huge.
RW Weighed what? Close to 300 pounds? I know the car they had-his father worked for the post office in Chicago. Of course, he drove Buicks, and for his son Raymond to drive, they had the steering wheel cut in half so he could get underneath the wheel.
MP Is that right?
RW His dad was what, a son to Mrs. Walton? He was a fine looking man. Raymond was fine looking, too.
MP How may people have lived in that house since Mrs. Walton lived there? Do you know?
RW A number of people.
MP Oh, is that right?
RW A fellow who worked with me, George Shriver bought it. And his wife. Then there was another family who lived in there before George. Oh, it's been a number of people.
MP Do you know anything about what kind of people these are who live there now?
RW No. I haven't been around that block in twenty years.
MP All right. I'm just going to take a chance and walk up there and tell them about the history and say, "Would you permit me to take a photograph." The point is there may be some things up in the attic or something. There could very well be.
RW I don't know.
MP I'm going to try and see if I can trace this one. This is fascinating.
RW Now, Arlene's father was the man I was telling you-Alonzo Walton was the fellow that Josephine was telling you about that was in World War I, and he had all these medals.
MP Which one was this one now?
RW This is Arlene Walton's father, Alonzo Walton. His name is out in Miller Park on that plaque at the entrance with all the others.
MP Oh, now we can put all of that together for a very interesting story. I'm going to have this young man go out and take a photograph of that and this.Mr.-Arlene's father.
RW Alonzo Walton.
MP Now, he is-this is Mrs. Walton's son, is that right?
JS He would have been a grandson because that was Sophie's son.
MP Alonzo Walton is the grandson of this Mrs. [Chlora]Walton.
JS Her husband was named John.
MP And he served in World War I? And he was decorated?
RW Yes. Several times, I guess. Did several heroic things.
JS He was a big daredevil.
MP Is that right?
RW Well, we had an old sheriff-at least a city policeman or something, that shot him. And he limped from then on. He told him to halt, and he just kept walking.
MP Is that right?
JS Yes, he went home to get a checkerboard. They was up here at Burkharts, and they was playing cards, and they wanted to play checkers. So he walked back around to his grandmother's house to get this checkerboard and walked straight on down. He used to come through here-and I'm sorry he didn't do it, but he walked straight from his house on Cherry to Linden, and then started walking up, and I guess this man must have been watching. And he was on his way back up to Willow and Linden-to the Burkharts, and they shot him there on the corner of Cherry and Linden just as he was turning.
MP About what year was that would you say?
JS Oh, that would have been back in-let's see, ]19]25 I believe.
MP 1925?
JS Yes. [19]25 or [19]26.
MP He thought he was stealing?
RW No.
JS He couldn't have been thinking that.
RW He used to be-Wilbur was talking to me about that out there (unintelligible). He asked if I remembered it. I said, "No, it was before my time."
MP But Wilbur remembers the incident?
RW He remembers him being shot. I don't know whether he knows why or what. But my mother told me about it. Seems like he told him to halt, and he just kept walking. I guess he was one of these little old city policemen here. We used to hire anything, coal-haulers or anything else, for policemen.
JS I wish I could think of their name. They lived on Mulberry Street west of Linden Street, the second house on the north side of the street.
MP The one who did the shooting?
JS Un-huh.
RW On the corner of Ash and Linden he had what they call a plane mill where they planed lumber. The building's tore down now. Wilbur would know the name.
MP You know there should be some material in some of the histories about this Alonzo Walton.
RW There should be.
MP And I have a book that was written by Booker T. Washington's secretary that presents a lot of information about Blacks in World War I. So I'm going to check that out and see what I can find.
JS What was his secretary's name?
MP Scott. Something Scott.
RW Arlene might still have his medals.
MP She may have them, right? Gee, we really need to contact [her]. I'm going to call Mr. Gaston and see if he can get...
RW Do you want to call him now?
MP Yes. I could. I have his telephone number.
RW What is the name of his shop?
JS Is it the Upper Cut?
RW Just ask information.
MP All right. Let's see, information is...
RW 14-11.
MP Yes, I'd like the telephone number for the Upper Cut Barber Shop in Bloomington. Upper Cut. Robert Gaston's shop. Yes. All right. Hello. Mr. Gaston. Yes. Is he there? If I may. Thank you. Hello, Mr. Gaston? This is Mildred Pratt calling you from Illinois State University. Do you have a few minutes? Or just a second? I'm talking with Mr. Reginald Whittaker now, and we're talking about trying to get information about a Chlora Walton who lived here years ago. Chlora Walton, who lived in Normal years ago. And they tell me that she has a granddaughter, Arlene, who lives in Jacksonville, Illinois, and that you would know somebody named Marcella Powers who would be able to tell me where Arlene lives in Jacksonville. Could you give me? Yes. Arlene. Marcella Powers. All right. All right. Thank you. (pause)Yes. [phone number omitted]. All right. Thank you so much, Mr. Gaston. Good-bye. So I'll call-on Monday I'll call. I have Marcella Power's telephone number in Springfield.
RW Oh, she's in Springfield.
MP Oh, yes. It's 217 so that would be Springfield.
RW Well, Jacksonville would be too.
MP Now, I'm going down to Springfield on the 17th, 18th and 19th and I may, if I can, set up an appointment-I will call her before the-and it may be possible-I'm going to be pretty busy- but it may be possible for me to arrange to talk with Marcella Powers. Who is she now? Marcella?
JS Robert Gaston was married to her sister.
MP Oh, I see.
JS That would be his sister-in-law.
MP Yes. This woman is his sister-in-law.
MP Yes. This woman is his sister-in-law? Was she related to the Waltons at all?
RW No.
MP No relation at all.
JS She just lived in the same (unintelligible) with Arlene.
MP Did she ever live in Normal?
JS Marcella lived in Bloomington.
MP Bloomington. All right. Well, this is great. It seems like we may be on to her. And so the thing to do is if we can get her telephone number, that one day we'll arrange when you both can go down, and we'll just go down to Jacksonville.
RW I'd like that because I haven't seen Arlene in four years.
MP That's exactly what I will do. I will call Marcella on Monday and then make arrangements to see her when I'm in Springfield. And then I might, if she could give me the telephone number at that time, then I will call this Arlene. Oh, this is great!
RW Walton is her maiden name-like I said I don't know what her married name is. I did know, but I didn't... I asked some people from Jacksonville one time-I was in Springfield. And they said, "Oh, yeah. Her name is such-and-such. She's living in Jacksonville again."
MP Now when was that?
RW It's been several years.
MP Several years ago? But it's likely that she's still alive.
RW Oh, I think she would be. At least, I hope so.
MP We might be on to a really nice piece of information, right?
RW Yes, she might be able to really give you-yes, that would be really interesting on Mrs. Walton. I'm sure she would have pictures of her.
MP All right. I think that...
JS Erma. I think that was Erma Walton. I think that was what she called her sister.
MP Arlene's?
JS No. Arlene was the only child. I was trying to think of-I was speaking of him awhile ago.
RW Burkhart?
JS No, the big, fat...
MP Oh, the big, fat person?
RW Raymond.
MP Now, who was Raymond?
JS Now, Raymond and Erma were Mrs. Walton's son's children.
MP Oh, her son's children. Her grandchildren. Now, are they living now?
JS As far as we know. Now, the last I heard he was in Kansas City. Now I don't know where he is. And the last I heard of Erma she was living in New York, and she used to come back and visit every once in awhile.
RW I never saw her.
JS You wouldn't remember.
RW I don't think I ever saw her, but I do remember seeing Raymond.
JS She has been over there at Mrs. Walton's. And Mrs. Caldwell's, too. But you just didn't pay any attention.
RW Well, that's a possibility. But I do remember Raymond. Big, old rosy cheeks.
JS You know, they used to have dancing up on Forty-Third Street when Forty-Third Street in Chicago was something. They used to have a ballroom where they had dancing. I think he even taught dancing. Raymond was so light on his feet.
MP And still so heavy, right? That's like Jackie Gleason, you know, he's very fat, but he's very light and swift.
JS They said he was just terribly ill.
MP Oh, yes. They did. I just saw that little squib in the paper. Very talented. I always liked him. I thought he was great really.
JS Especially those "Honeymooners."
MP Oh, I think they were just fantastic. It was so true to life. It was great acting. Fantastic acting. That was good television in those days. Now, it's so difficult to find anything worth looking at.
JS Now they still come on, you know.
MP Yes, I know. They still come on. Just classics like "I Love Lucy," you know, really classic ones.
RW I wonder if Dorothy Scrivner is still living.
JS She would be about little Walter's age.
MP Where would she be?
RW Down in Missouri.
JS Was that Montgomery, Missouri. She wrote a letter here about the time she heard of our father's passing.
RW She wrote a condolence.
MP When did your father-that's what I didn't ask you.
JS He passed in [19]64. March 25, 1964.
MP Your father died on March 25, 1964. And your mother?
JS She died in [19]52.
MP Before you father?
JS Yes. October 9, [1952]. (pause) Twelve years.
MP Did she do any writing herself?
RW You mean like poems.
MP Yes.
RW No. Just letters. Her spelling was just flawless for not having a formal education, you know-high school and college.
JS Very seldom you'd run into anybody back in those days that had a formal education.
MP 'Cause it just wasn't possible. But it's amazing though their dedication to learning. That is just absolutely outstanding.
JS It seemed like that was uppermost...
MP They just had a tremendous thirst for knowledge.
RW Josephine was telling me that's why our Grandfather Whittaker came here to Normal, so his children could be educated.
MP Your Grandfather whom now?
RW Whittaker. That's why he came to Normal or Illinois.
MP So they could get an education. That's the other thing I really wanted to ask you too, and I'm glad you mentioned it. Why do you think-you told me why your mother happened to come here, and you're telling me now why your father's father came here, but how did they happen to know about little Normal?
RW I don't know.
MP Why did Black people happen to settle here in Normal?
RW Well, Mr. Koos seems to think that Jesse Fell brought most of them here.
MP Yeah, that's what I'm really wondering.
RW My grandfather worked for him but not...
MP But he didn't bring him here?
RW At least, I don't think so.
JS No, he didn't bring him here. I wonder if Mrs. Walton. (loud train whistle drowns out answer)
RW There might be a tie there, see. My Grandfather Whittaker and Mrs. Walton might have known one another down south.
JS That might have been where the tie was. They could have been cousins on my grandfather's part.
MP That's right. And if she came here as a runaway slave, then she got established. Then she may have, you know, had those contacts 'cause that's usually the way it happens with Black people. You know somebody, and they say, "Well, come on up," you know.
JS And it's still going on.
MP Yes. That's right. That may have been how you...
RW That's why I'd be anxious to find out something more on the Waltons because I'd like to find out something out on my-Dad would not talk about his side of the family. You'd ask, and he's answer you and it'd stop there.
MP Just "yes" [and] "no." Is that right?
RW Well, no, he'd say, but he didn't elaborate.
MP But it could be because of slavery.
RW Well, but not-his father was not a slave.
JS They were from Baton Rouge.
MP They were free Blacks, right?
RW I'm certain they-of course, my Grandfather Whittaker, they tell me, was a tall-straight black hair, and you'd figure he was a white man coming down the street.
MP Is that right? That's your father's father.
RW Yes. My Grandfather Whittaker. And Mrs. Walton looked kind of like-I imagine when she was young, she looked like a white person.
JS She had beautiful hair. I can remember it being gray, but in that beautiful silver gray. And in that picture, it was black. And she was really a pretty woman. Of course, she was a good-looking old lady.
RW I'm certain that my grandfather's father was a slave.
MP So your grandfather's father was probably a slave?
RW Or mother was a slave. One or the other. I think that was one reason my father didn't like to talk about it because he didn't like that idea. It was embarrassing, I guess. You know how they did.
MP Oh, yes. Many old people just don't want to talk about that. It's embarrassing. There's a book that's written and the title of it is They Told Us Not To Tell Anybody. And this is the people who were slaves, the Blacks, talking about their experiences. They were told not to talk about, you know, and not to tell anybody. And I think this is it. I think you're right.
JS In some of these books you read they take the good-looking ones and put them in the house and make those the house slaves. And the ones that didn't look so good out in the fields.
MP And it was embarrassing to talk about it. And that's true with some Jewish people. They don't like to talk about what happened to their people in the Holocaust, and some of them just want to forget it, wipe it away. And I think that was probably the case with your father, as you say, Mr. Whittaker. Yes. It probably was.
RW He just didn't want to get into it. Wouldn't elaborate on it.
JS And I could remember he certainly must have made them respect him here because we'd walk down the street, "Good evening, Mr. Whittaker. Good evening, Mr. Whittaker." Or those that really knew him they would say, "Walter." Very friendly.
RW All these neighbors around referred to him as "Mr. Whittaker" and they referred to my mother as "Mrs. Whittaker," and there were no first names.
JS You know, there used to be an apple tree out here, and Mom was out here, and I come out the back smarty. I said, "Oh, Caddie. Caddie." She says, "Young lady, don't you dare call me by my first name. I'll horsewhip you!" I said, "Why?" She said," You sound just like trash!" (laughter)
MP And they do not dare call her that.
JS No. And if you-I remember a lady who used to come here. She wanted to know mother's first name, and she told her, "But I prefer you call me Mrs. Whittaker." (inaudible sentence) She demanded respect, and she carried herself in that in that position.
MP And she also taught her children to do likewise.
RW And of course she always-any of these neighbors she called them Mrs. whatever their name was. Of course, she never bothered none of them. She didn't go to their house. They would come over here, stand in the yard, and talk to her, but she kept a distance. And it was always "Mrs. Buck(?)," or "Mrs. Lowry," or "Riley," or whoever was around here. You know, it's amazing when you think back over it how they stayed on top of things.
MP Yes. Yes, it is.
JS They knew who were Ku Klux.
MP Were there Ku Klux Klanners around here?
JS Oh, yes.
MP In Normal?
JS Normal and Bloomington. They used to have their cross burnings, didn't they Reggie, right down here on Jersey Avenue. Straight through here off of Linden. Across the big field. Close to where the Scrivners lived.
MP And they would burn their crosses?
JS They had big meetings there.
RW We came in from, wasn't it Chicago? Turned in the driveway and some went running across the back yard here.
MP Is that right?
RW Of course, my brother John, and my brother Walter, and my dad was right in behind them.
MP Is that right?
RW They didn't catch them. They thought they were scared of them.
MP Were any of the neighbors part of the Ku Klux Klan? Any whites in this community?
RW Do you mean the community around us?
MP Yes.
RW I don't know. Do you know?
JS Mama always thought the [name omitted]. She always felt like he was one.
MP Is that right?
JS We don't know for sure. Some of them think they are still here, but they keep it quiet. You know Champaign is just full. They're just (inaudible) and Danville.
MP Is that right?
JS They were on the TV here a couple or three years ago. They had the meeting...
End Side B; Tape 1
Side A; Tape 2
JS (in mid-statement a inaudible sentence) And they were sitting up there-you look at them in their robes, you know, with that little pointed-and those white robes and there was about twelve of them. And different people called in and so that was a disgrace.
MP They never did anything harmful.
RW No.
MP They never attempted to damage your property or anything like that?
RW No.
JS And then at different times why they'd shut off all the lights. It was dark around here when the streetlights were off, and they'd come out in the backyard, and I'd be waiting to see if something was going to happen.
MP Is that right?
JS We had to be quiet in the house.
RW I remember I came on in the house. I guess Mother must have come back here to see what was going on.
JS Yes. Mom come out...
RW I come on in the house and had one of those pedal cars or something. I was playing with that. I wasn't alarmed at all.
MP I understand-and this is something I'm not quite sure about-that this area was really pretty much settled by many Southern whites.
JS Yes. Tennessee, Kentucky, and the Carolinas.
MP It's still very interesting, though, that Blacks could live right around here with whites in, you know, I guess you'd say mutual respect in a sense.
RW Well, things ran in cycles, seemingly. I guess during the time of my father, when he and my mother were young-married and young, you could more or less buy in a neighborhood like this. They had saloons they called them, uptown. The men could go in and get them a drink. They used to-like the Three C Club and then my brother John belonged to a young men's club, and they used to rent the different dance halls for parties. In Miller Park Pavilion my mother's club, the Three C's, used to rent that. And then the cycle moved around to where they wouldn't rent you nothing. You couldn't even rent Miller Park Pavilion. The wouldn't let you have it. Had excuses. These other halls, they stopped renting to you. Only way you went in one of these taverns was to go in and sweep it out. Or go in there and buy something and come out, see. And that's what I remember.
MP So that was around the forties?
RW And they had quit selling property to Negroes-or Blacks. I still like the word Negroes myself.
MP In Normal, is that right?
RW In Normal.
MP Was that around the forties, would you say?
RW Yes.
MP Because I know that there were several Blacks who came here around the sixties and said they had difficulty buying property in Normal.
RW And certain areas in Bloomington.
MP Yes, that's right.
RW So now the pendulum has gone the other way.
MP Yes, that's right.
JS At one time they told my brother Walter-I guess he got into it with one of those kids in school, and he told him, "There won't be anymore Blacks in Normal." And I think there was about...
RW Wasn't what-about twenty families.
JS Well, there might have been around fourteen families lived here. Some of them have moved on and moved out. And shortly after that it looks like it's been invaded. I thought those predictions didn't...
MP They didn't pan out.
JS Didn't pan out like they thought they was going to.
MP Yes, yes.
JS It doesn't matter to him. He says, "I'll still be here. We'll be here."
RW I guess some families were talking at the supper table, and the kids overheard it, and they burned a cross over here in the next block. This would be in what-the early sixties? It hit Jet magazine.
MP In the early sixties? Is that right?
RW Right up here in the next block. There's a house up there with the Garrisons. The kids set a cross-who was living there? The Alexanders-Tommy Alexander and his boys. They were going to buy that place. And these kids put that cross up there. The Vidette ran a big story on it. The Pantagraph. The mayors come out and said, "We're not going to have that."
MP Oh, the Pantagraph ran a article on it? That was in the sixties. Well, we should be able to find that. I have somebody looking through the Pantagraphs.
RW Yes, that was in the sixties. Late fifties or early sixties. It was even in Jet magazine. Friends of ours in California read it.
JS At the school it was very-they didn't like that at all.
RW All it was was some kids.
MP Some kids who were doing that?
RW Listening to their parents.
MP And they didn't understand what they were doing.
RW My neighbor here told me one of the boys. Her boy might have been on it, too.
JS I remember when they tried to call the fire department. I think Norma's dryer caught on fire, and it had her little daughter's Easter dress, and she was trying to get the telephone. And she asked the folks on the line if they could let her use the phone so she could call the fire department, and they just wouldn't do it. She had to go someplace else.
RW Party line.
MP Yes, sure.
JS They just wouldn't let her do it. They just kept it busy. They just kept talking.
MP That's a very interesting part of the history.
JS That was right around that same time when that occurred. Cross burning.
MP But there were no problems in the schools? You didn't have any experience with those problems, is that right?
JS As to being prejudiced like that?
MP Yes.
JS No. Just what children would say. Most of the time we had to fight for-literally fisticuffs for calling names and things, you know. And after you gave a few good whippings you brought things around.
RW We had some Dabney kids down here. They loved to fight. If they were a little too big for us, we'd get ahold of them.
MP Let them do it for you.
RW Yes, they'd wait.
JS They'd wait. After it'd start, they'd help all of us.
RW ISU was quite prejudice for, I guess, a long time.
MP Yes. I understand.
RW Black students would go to the Homecoming dances, but anything else they didn't go to. They had their own Spring Prom in the spring. But the other social events, I don't think the students would attend them. They didn't come out and tell them, I guess, they couldn't come. But they knew they didn't belong.
MP They knew they didn't feel comfortable there.
JS Or tell them like Dean Lillian Barton. She'd tell them to stay for a little while and then leave.
MP Oh, is that right?
RW You heard of her?
MP No. Say the name again now.
JS Her name was Lillian Barton. And Barton Drive was named after her.
MP And she was the dean?
JS And she was the Dean of Women.
MP Now, is she still alive?
JS No. I think she died a few years ago.
MP I think she's the one somebody told me I should talk to.
JS And then there's... I'm trying to think of the one who took her place. It will come to me at midnight.
MP But that was interesting. She told them "You can come and stay a little while and then go." So you don't cause trouble I guess.
RW It's been an interesting time.
MP Well things do go in cycles. They do go in cycles because for a long time you never heard...
End Side A; Tape 2
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