McLean County Museum of History

Keep the Heritage Alive!

Reginald Whittaker & Josephine Whittaker Samuels

Speaking about their mother, Caddie Whittaker


Narrator: Josephine Whittaker Samuels and Reginald Whittaker
Date: (Unknown)
Interviewer: Mildred Pratt
Topic: Their mother Rosa Katez Wilson (Caddie Whittaker)

Side A

MP	Mrs. Samuels, you were going to tell me your mother's full name.

JS	He full name was Rosa Katez. K-A-T-E-Z. Wilson. (someone comes to the door)

MP	And when was she born?

JS	She was born 1884.

MP	And the place of birth?

JS	Georgetown, Kentucky.

MP	Georgetown, Kentucky, all right. And the name of her father?

JS	His name was John Walter Wilson.

MP	John Walter Wilson. And her mother?

JS	And her mother's name was Belle. And her maiden name?

MP	Yes.

JS	Graves.

MP	Her mother's first name was Belle. B-E-L-L-E. Graves. And do you know where her father was born?

JS	In New Orleans, I believe.

MP	New Orleans. And where was her mother born?

JS	I think she was from there, too.

MP	From New Orleans. Now did your mother ever tell you why and under what conditions they came to Kentucky?

JS	I believe my grandmother had an aunt that lived there, and she came to visit. And that's where she stayed, with her aunt, in Georgetown, Kentucky. And she married my grandfather, John Walter Wilson.

MP	Now was it, did they live in a rural area or was it a town?

JS	It was a little town.

MP	And do you know what kind of work her father did?

JS	Plastering.

MP	Oh, he did plastering work. And did her mother work outside the home?

JS	She didn't work outside the home, but she did dressmaking.

MP	Oh, she was a dressmaker. So she had her own business then?

JS	She had her own little business.

MP	And do you know anything about the education of her father-what level of education he attained?

JS	No, I don't. The only thing, I remember Mother talking about her dad-that he could read, but he couldn't write.

MP	Oh, is that right?

JS	But we never did believe it because he wrote a card to my oldest brother when he was young. My grandfather said he couldn't write, but he sent a card to him.

MP	And what about her mother's education?

JS	Her mother's education?

JS	Her mother's education I don't know about.

RW	From what I can remember my mother saying his grandmother taught him mostly. My Grandfather Wilson's grandmother taught him to read.

MP	So now to your knowledge, was either of you mother's parents knowledgeable about slavery in any way at all? Were they always free?

JS	They were free.

MP	They were always free, yes. All right. And were they able to trace the place from which their ancestors came in Africa? Did they ever talk about that?

JS	No.

MP	No. All right. Now...

RW	There was such a mixture there.

MP	Oh, is that right. Would you speak about the mixture?

RW	Well, my grandfather, as I recall...

MP	That's your mother's father?

RW	Yes. Grandfather Wilson. His mother was the daughter of John Pratt who owned a hotel there in Georgetown. And his father was a West Indian slave by the name of Wilson that lived in the north part of Georgetown, a little section called-Boston they called it. It was just a section of the town, north of the town, called Boston. I recall that much.

MP	They lived in this hotel.

RW	My grandfather did. He was raised by his grandfather and grandmother. We don't know about his mother-whether.

JS	Aunt Frances was born there.

RW	whether she was sent away or died or what.

MP	Your Aunt Frances was born at the hotel?

JS	Yes.

MP	Was this a famous hotel?

JS	Just about the only one they had.

MP	Oh, is that right. So then Blacks and whites lived in that hotel as relatives?

JS	Yes.

MP	Is that what you would say? And there, to your knowledge, there were no problems with that? Because that was in the 1800s, right.

RW	Well, John Pratt, my great-grandfather, owned the hotel. They were white, and my grandfather Wilson was raised by them in the hotel. As far as we know, he might have been born there. His grandmother-she did the educating of him. When my Grandfather Wilson married my grandmother, they lived in the hotel.

MP	Oh, they did? So that your mother lived in the hotel for awhile.

RW	My oldest aunt was born there.

MP	That's your mother's sister was born there? Yes.

RW	I don't think my mother was born there. She, from what my aunt says-she was born in another part of the town. They had moved, my grandfather and grandmother had gone off to themselves.

MP	Do you know how they happened to move out of the hotel?

RW	Well, I guess, being a married couple and all, he went out on his own.

MP	I see. Now, this Wilson-do you retain any contact with that relative at all?

RW	No.

MP	Do you know that your mother had any contact with them after...?

RW	No. She never talked about them.

MP	Do you know where the Pratts-did they come from?

RW	Boston.

MP	They came from Boston.

RW	They were Boston people.

MP	All right. And they just operated a hotel. Was that the only business they had?

RW	Far as I know.

JS	Let's see now, my grandfather went to that academy there in Maryland.

MP	Your grandfather?

RW	Great-grandfather?

JS	Great-grandfather.

MP	Your great-grandfather went to the Naval Academy in Maryland.

JS	I don't know whether that's the Navy or the Army.

RW	He was either a colonel or general or something.

MP	Oh, he was a general?

RW	Well, I'm not sure.

MP	I think it's a Naval Academy as I remember it.

RW	He and the Pratts-I mean, the Pratts and the Clays of Lexington, Kentucky are related some way or another.

MP	Now, when you say the Clays, what are you referring to? Henry Clay?

RW	Yes, that family.

MP	Is that right?

RW	Senator Henry Clay of Lexington, Kentucky.

MP	Is that right?

RW	The Pratts and the Clays were related some way or another.

MP	And so you would be related to them in some way, some distant way.

RW	Real distant.

MP	Very distant. Right. (laughs) Now what ever happened to the hotel business, do you know?

RW	It was torn down. The city took it after he died.

MP	After your great-grandfather died.

RW	The city took it and a fire station's sitting there now.

MP	Oh, is that right? So they demolished it-the hotel. Did you tell me the name of the hotel?

RW	No.

MP	Do you know the name of it?

JS	I don't know the name of it.

MP	That would be reasonably easy to find if were able to contact somebody there in Georgetown. Now, during the Civil War, do you know anything of how your family in that hotel was affected by the Civil War? Did any of them fight?

RW	Well, I guess my great-grandfather was in the war, John Pratt.

MP	Would he have been a Union soldier?

RW	He must have been because he didn't believe in slavery.

MP	Yes, he probably was.

JS	They didn't buy slaves or anything there in Kentucky, but they had the trading part. Nobody in Kentucky there could own a slave.

MP	Was that the northern part of Kentucky you are referring to?

JS	Yes, the northern part of Kentucky-northeastern part.

MP	They could not own slaves? That's really interesting.

RW	Georgetown is about twenty-five miles south of Cincinnati.

MP	Oh is it?

JS	Twelve miles from Lexington.

MP	Twelve miles from Lexington, yes. I probably passed that going through there because we were in Lexington several years ago playing tennis.

RW	Yes, if you went down [Highway] 75 you went right through Georgetown.

MP	Do you have any relatives there now to your knowledge?

RW	There's a possibility of one cousin who might be living of my mother's.

MP	I see.

JS	They died out so quickly.

RW	Lony [Lenora] was that her name?

JS	Yes, I think that was her name. She lost her sister.

RW	I don't know whether she's living now or not. We didn't stay in contact.

MP	Now, would you give me the names of your mother's brothers and sisters?

JS	Let's see, Aunt Frances.

MP	Now was she the oldest?

JS	She was the oldest. Frances Sharp.

MP	Frances Sharp.

RW	Then my mother.

JS	They called her Caddie. C-A-D-D-I-E. She didn't like her name. She went by Caddie.

MP	Is that right?

JS	Do you want her marriage name or her maiden name Wilson?

MP	Why don't you just give me the full-her first name, her maiden name, and then her married name.

JS	Well, her maiden name was Wilson. Then Duff Whittaker.

MP	Whittaker. All right. Now were there just the two children?

RW	No, they had a brother.

MP	What was his name?

RW	John Walter Wilson.

MP	John Walter Wilson, and that was all.

RW	No. Two more. There was Anna Wilson, and the baby girl was Lena Wilson. She's still living.

MP	Oh, is she? Where is she living now?

RW	Norfolk, Virginia. She's about ninety.

MP	Oh, is that right? Now, would you tell me where, if you remember, where you mother went to school?

RW	Georgetown.

MP	In Georgetown. Was it a public or private school?

RW	Public.

MP	It was a public school. And did she go to school with white children?

RW	No. They didn't have that in those days.

MP	Well, what about her sister Frances? She lived in the hotel now. Did she go to school or was she taught by the parents?

RW	Well, she was born there.

MP	She was born in the hotel.

RW	Yeah, how long they lived there, I don't know. 'Cause they went out on their own, you know. Had his own family.

MP	Now, how much education did your mother receive?

RW	Don't really know. I would imagine grade school. She read a lot, beautiful handwriting.

JS	She always stressed education.

RW	Oh, yes.

MP	When did she leave Georgetown? How old was she?

JS	Eighteen years old, I would say.

MP	Do you know how she happened to have left at that age?

JS	There was a white family by the name of Kelly, and they wanted her to come here to Bloomington. And they were going to send her to nursing school.

MP	Oh, is that right? Wonder how she made contact with them, do you know? Did she ever tell you?

JS	She never did tell us. They might have been visiting there or something. But they were always very fond of my mother.

MP	Yes. And so she came and she worked for them. But she never went to nursing school.

JS	No. I guess shortly after that she must have married.

MP	Yes, that's what I was going to ask you about how old she was when she got married?

JS	I think she was around nineteen, something like that.

MP	And she married Mr. Duff.

JS	Yes. John Duff. John Robert Duff.

MP	John Robert Duff. And when she got married then-did she live with the Kellys until she was married?

JS	I believe she did.

MP	And then she moved to the Duff home?

JS	No, she and her husband lived on East Taylor Street there in Bloomington.

MP	Oh, is that right? Do you know the address?

JS	I don't know the address.

MP	And what kind of work did he do?

JS	Let's see, she said at that time he was like a porter.

MP	At the train station?

JS	No, at a barbershop, at different barbershops.

MP	Oh, he had a barbershop? Do you know how long they lived on Taylor Street?

JS	Well, it was...

RW	Fay was born there.

MP	Your oldest sister was born there. Yes. Now did they rent that or they bought that home?

JS	They rented.

MP	They rented that one, yes.

RW	Then they moved out here to Normal down here on South Oak. They bought that place.

MP	Is that house still there now?

RW	No. It's been torn down.

MP	New apartment buildings probably.

JS	New apartment building, I guess, or homes, I don't know.

MP	Yes. And they moved to Oak Street, and they remained there until...?

RW	Until he passed.

MP	How old was he when he...

RW	Twenty-one.

MP	Is that right? So they had not been married long when he died.

JS	No. But he died before my oldest-she was pregnant with John, my oldest brother. Six- months pregnant.

MP	Is that right?

JS	At that time, I guess, it must have been typhoid fever.

MP	It probably was.

RW	It was. It was raging through Normal and Bloomington at that time.

MP	Yes. Did your mother catch it?

RW	No.

MP	No, she didn't. So your brother John then was born after his father died.

RW	Yes.

MP	Oh, yes. All right.

RW	He only knows our father.

MP	Yes. And so did your mother continue working after she was married? Outside the home?

RW	To John Duff you mean?

MP	When she married Robert Duff?

RW	John Robert Duff?

MP	John Robert Duff. Did she continue working?

RW	We don't know.

MP	You don't know that. All right. Then after her husband died, then she got married to Mr. Whittaker?

RW	Yes.

MP	And what was his first name?

RW	Walter.

MP	Walter Whittaker.

RW	Walter Wesley Whittaker.

MP	Yes. And how long after...

RW	Oh, it was quite a while. I think, were Fay and John pretty close to starting school when she married my father-our father rather?

JS	I was trying to think now. They must have been around four. Three and four years old. She'd know him ever since they were babies, I guess.

MP	Yes. And so she had to rear those two children alone then.

RW	Till they were about three or four. Till she married my father.

MP	Is that right? And so she had to go back to work then, I suppose.

RW	Yes.

MP	And then when she married your father, did she move immediately from where she was living on Oak Street?

RW	I think they lived down there for awhile. 'Cause his father, and he had a couple brothers, and a sister were still living here at this place.

MP	Oh, they were living in this house. Yes. And when she married him then I suppose she stopped work outside...?

RW	She worked a little off and on.

MP	Yes.

JS	And she didn't really go back to work. She wanted to go back to work. I think I was in first grade. She worked out at the Illinois Soldiers and Sailors School.

MP	Oh, did she?

JS	They called it the Illinois Soldiers and Sailors Orphans Home.

MP	Yes. She worked there for awhile. What she do there?

JS	She worked at the dormitories with-I guess, she did the training of some the...

MP	Oh, she worked directly with the children then.

JS	Because she had to teach them how to make up their beds and everything. She worked there for quite awhile, and then we begged her to come home.

MP	Oh, you did?

JS	Yes, we did. We'd come home from school, you know...

MP	And you wanted her to be home? Powerful children.

JS	We wanted her to be home. Well, she wasn't gone too long. Let's see, we got out like at 3:00 [P M], and then she got there about 3:30 but it's just the idea of walking in the house and Mama wasn't there.

MP	Yes. And so then did she stop work soon after that?

JS	Yes, she stopped work for awhile, and then she went back I think after Reggie-let's see, you were about three or four years old?

RW	I don't know. All I can remember is she worked out there and you taking me over there to Mrs. Walton's.

JS	Mrs. Walton used to keep him.

RW	I think she quit when I started school.

MP	Oh, is that right? Oh, she took you over to the home.

RW	Josephine took me over to a lady on Cherry Street.

JS	Before I went to school.

MP	Oh, who took care of him then?

JS	Yes. Mama would walk up to the corner on her way to work, and then we'd go two blocks south and one block east and Mrs. Walton kept...

RW	Kept me until she got out of school and she'd come get me.

MP	Now, was your mother the one who had the major responsibility for disciplining you, for working out your schedules and all of that. Would you talk about that?

RW	She had the major responsibility for all discipline! And she disciplined, too.

MP	Could you talk about that?

JS	She was very strict. She believed in us minding any older person. And picking up our clothes.

RW	The bed had to be made up. When you got out of it, you threw the covers back for it to air. When you washed up and everything, then you made up the bed. You didn't leave out of here to go to school.

MP	Without your bed made. Now, did you have a bathroom when you grew up as children inside the house?

JS	We had the toilet stool in the basement.

MP	Did you have a bathtub?

JS	Tin tub. Then later the bathroom was put in. We weren't too old when we got a bathroom-when they started putting bathrooms in homes.

MP	Oh, yes. Because I know the house where Dorothy Stockstell--Mr. Barton showed me where they had the old outside toilet.

JS	We didn't have an outside toilet.

MP	You did have a toilet in the basement. Yes.

JS	Then after that it was a short time that we got the bathroom because I remember Mr. [Franklin] Stuart on Cherry. He was so nice. He did the plumbing. My dad knew him very well.

MP	Oh, he was a plumber? Now, did you do any cooking around the house? Did you help with the cooking?

JS	I started I think helping mother cook or trying to learn how to cook when I was about nine, watching her. And I was glad I did because there had been times when she didn't feel well.

MP	Yes. And then you could do that.

JS	Then I could pitch in and help. And I also learned how to iron, too.

MP	Now you didn't have electricity then, did you?

RW	Yes.

MP	Oh, you had electricity in your house then?

JS	I think we were some of the first that had it.

MP	That what I was thinking that you probably were.

JS	We had lots of company come and see the electricity.

MP	Oh, is that right? Show and tell, huh? You said that your mother was a strict disciplinarian. Was she more strict on the girls than on the boys?

JS	I think so. Although she was strict with them and wanted them to be little gentleman, but, oh brother, the girls had to be just so-so.

MP	And you had to be home at a certain time?

JS	Yes, ma'am.

MP	What was the time that you had to be home?

JS	Now when I started dating, eleven o'clock. Not five minutes after, but eleven o'clock straight up.

MP	Now when could you date? Only on weekends?

JS	On the weekends.

MP	And at what age could you officially date?

JS	Officially date-that was supposed to be eighteen. But we started having little parties and things, you know, and , oh, I think we was about fifteen then. Having these parties where you invite the boys.

MP	Yes, yes. That was the unofficial dating.

JS	"Oh, you're not dating until you get eighteen? Well, we'll have to call that to a screeching halt."

MP	You were saying your mother placed a lot of emphasis on education. Could you talk about that? Did she help you with you schoolwork?

JS	Yes. She could do a lot of questions. You know, about the schoolwork. And always telling us that you will get nowhere unless you have an educational. Especially, a high school education, at the time. And the farther you could go the better off. (Unintelligible) didn't even want a garbage man unless he had a high school education. And try to strive, you know, for something higher.


MP	Did she help you with you schoolwork? Did you have a program, you know, a schedule for doing you schoolwork, your homework?

JS	Yes. When we got home from school, she'd let us romp a bit, you know. Get that out of our systems, but then you'd come in and right after supper-we usually had supper about 5:30-there was the study hour until, I'd say bedtime, eight o'clock.

MP	Did she talk with you about current events because I looked at that scrapbook and I thought that was very interesting how she...

JS	Anything interesting in the newspaper, she would clip out, you know, and talk about.

End Side A

Side B

MP	Anything about Black History at all? Prominent Black people at that time to your knowledge?

RW	Well, Fay used to live in Chicago at that time, and she used to send the Chicago Defender down to my mother. And of course, there was a family here by the name of Meaderds, and some of those boys sold the Defender, and my parents bought it. She got her news about those types of things out of the Defender.

MP	Yes, because I know she had a lot of photographs about prominent Blacks.

RW	Most of those came out of the Defender. And she would, like you said a minute ago you noticed the clippings, she'd cut those out. I asked her one time, "What are you saving all them old pictures for?" And she said, "Oh, you will enjoy them one of these days." So that day is here, but now I can't read them or see them. But anyway, she did those things. She also took-subscribed to various magazines that she read, and she would clip recipes and household hints, things of that nature. She read an awful lot in the evenings when she got through with her chores. She and my father both.

MP	Do you know what kind of reading did she do? I think, you father, you told me he liked math or something.

RW	Yes. He would read and work math. And encyclopedia-he had some encylopedias, and he'd get those out and just read 'em like reading a mystery or something. Bible. [News]paper from front to back. I never noticed him fooling with magazines much, did you?

JS	No, I never.

MP	Is that right?

RW	He didn't bother with those.

MP	What did-your mother primarily read magazines? Newspapers?

RW	Yes. Good Housekeeping. What was that-Woman's Day-she subscribed to. That's where she got her household hints and recipes and things of that nature. Both of them were just-one thing I admire about them as I recall sitting around the supper table the conversation was always about some interesting thing. Never about-no race.

MP	Is that right?

RW	No.

MP	You just talked about events?

RW	Yes, they did. We didn't.

MP	You listened.

RW	I listened. I wanted to get out and get going. I had baseball and football and whatever. And they never sat down and talked about-they never put his hatred of white people in our heads.

JS	In our heads at all.

RW	They taught us-my mother did most of it and my father was so quiet. My mother would say, "You stay away from such and such a person. 'Cause they're trouble." And I couldn't understand that, but now I do. She didn't like "trash" of any kind. It didn't make no difference to her what color it was. If it was trash, she didn't like it.

MP	She didn't want to be bothered by it. Now, did they ever talk about politics? About the president?

RW	Yes. They talk about that.

MP	At the table?

JS	At the table. They were Republicans.

MP	Oh, they were? Now, of course, most Black people were Republicans then. But were they actively involved in politics either of them?

JS	Well, I remember Dad was involved in that ...what did they call that club? Abraham Lincoln-was it the Rail-splitters or was that what we named it?

RW	I don't know. It was kind of before my comprehension.

JS	I know we went to Springfield with them.

MP	To one of the meetings?

JS	They'd have speakers.

MP	Is that right? This organization would, is that right?

JS	Yes. The Meaderds and Calimeses belonged to it-the two brothers Napoleon and Bert. Oh, I can't think of everybody.

RW	Stevensons. Oh, about all the Black people that they associated with.

MP	And they would go down-the meetings were held in Springfield?

JS	Well, they'd hold them here, but if it was a big convention like somebody would come in from Peoria or anyplace like that, you know, they'd all go to Springfield. And they'd have a big picnic, ball games, and they'd have this speaking. Oh, the Deans. I remember they belonged to it.

MP	Now, they would take the children? It was a family affair?

RW	Yes. There was no baby-sitter. You went where they went.

MP	Do you remember the kind of speakers, any of the speakers? Were they national leaders or pretty much state.

JS	I think they were state.

MP	But you can't remember the name of the organization? You think it was the Rail- splitters?

JS	I think they called it the Abraham Lincoln Rail-splitters. Oh, that would be shame if it was something else. (laughs)

RW	Somebody else like Caribel might remember?

JS	(Inaudible) A lot of them.

MP	Now, what did the organization do?

JS	Oh, they would get out and get people to vote. And then they'd have different ones come that was on the ballot to run in the state or town that they thought would be good for the betterment of the community, they'd have them come and speak up at the Masonic Lodge.

MP	Now at the dinner table, were you as children expected to talk or listen?

MP	But always at the table there was discussion of educational kinds of things, current events?

JS	We had a nice colored doctor here, Mr. Covington, Girard [sic] Covington. And he was a very good doctor. He was quite colorful, you know. And Dad used to get a big kick out of telling how he got his business started. At that time, I guess he had the horse and buggy when he first started his business, and he'd say, "About every half-hour or hour or so you'd see him tearing out getting into this buggy and whipping the horses and go. And the folks got to thinking, 'Why, he is some doctor. He's busy all the time.' "

MP	Working those horses, huh?

JS	And he got quite a trade.

MP	He had a pretty good business then, is that right? Now did someone tell me that he had both white and Black patients?

RW	Yes. Oh, yes.

JS	You could hardly get into his office.

MP	Do you know where he got his degree?

RW	No, I don't.

JS	I really don't, you know.

MP	Now, did you usually have guest at your dinner table on Sundays or during the week?

JS	Like on the weekends, I remember whenever anybody come to visit you, they were always expected to have dinner or some kind of repast. Like Mother would always have cake or homemade sherbet or homemade ice cream. Folks would visit then more so than they do now.

MP	I think your right. They felt comfortable to drop in at any time.

JS	I remember the Thomases used to walk up. They lived on Fell and Willow. They'd walk up mostly Sunday, or we'd go down there. Seemed like there would always be somebody and like Mrs. Walton would come over and maybe the Burkharts, and we'd have this game like they call Lotto now. Lottery on cards. We'd play Lotto. Then they had another little game, Finch. And we'd always play around the dining room table.

MP	And that was the whole family. Everybody.

JS	Yes, the whole family. And the Dabney's children would come up. We'd always have a nice little.

MP	Was your house kind of like the little meeting place? Informal meeting place?

JS	I guess, because of the children. It seems like there was always somebody here at that time.

MP	Now, I wanted to ask you, did your father help you with your schoolwork like with your math and that?

JS	Yes, he would. If you asked him, he would help.

MP	He would.

RW	I didn't care for him to help us.

JS	Those problems, you know. I remember being so disgusted with it. (laughs) I took it to school, and the teacher couldn't figure it out either. But he was right.

MP	But it was very complicated, right? He was very analytical or something.

JS	Do you remember doing those problems?

RW	No, I avoided that. He was the type that if he knew it, you should know it. He was impatient if you didn't grasp it immediately. So I'd go to my mother.

JS	I think I liked to go to him to tease him.

JS	Yes. He had a lot of patience with me because I was very mischievous. I can remember that. I can just see him looking at me just as stern and just patient. I imagine he thought, "Well, she's not altogether here."

MP	Guess that's why he was more patient with you. (laughter)

JS	I don't know why I wanted to tease him so. `Cause he was stern I guess.

MP	Now, I wanted to ask you was your mother an active member of clubs or organizations?

JS	My mother was one of the ones that helped found the Three C Club.

MP	So she was very active in that club"

JS	They used have an awful lot of fun.

RW	I used to go to all the meetings, too.

MP	Oh, did you? Is that right? You could go?

RW	Yeah. No baby-sitters.

MP	So you were lucky right?

RW	Well, you went and you behaved.

MP	Did other parents bring their children?

RW	Some of them did.

JS	Those that had older ones to stay home and baby-sit wouldn't, but if they didn't, why they had to go with their mothers. You know they just didn't leave you around.

MP	I understand. Now, what other organizations was she active in?

JS	Well, let's see. Whenever the little Methodist Church-we had two of them out here, a Methodist Church and a little Christian Church.

MP	Well, tell me now-because somebody said-I was telling them that it seem that there were several churches in Normal, Black churches. Which ones were they now?

JS	The Methodist was a subsidiary of the Wayman A.M.E. Church in Bloomington. That was right off of Willow on Fell.

MP	Was it a house that had been converted?

RW	No, it was a church.

JS	And then they converted it into a house way late, you know. The Daniels lived in there. And then they tore it down not too long ago and put these apartments up.

MP	Yes, now that church, what was that one called now?

RW	That was the Methodist Church.

MP	And so that one-people from Normal...

JS	That one went on in the afternoon.

MP	Were there only Blacks that attended that church?

JS	Yes.

MP	I thought I saw something. There was some church where it seems to me there was a white person who was a member, I'm not sure. So then there was that Methodist Church and then there was another Methodist Church?

JS	Then we had a little Christian Church right down here on the corner on Cherry and Linden.

RW	We'd go there in the mornings.

JS	We'd go there in the mornings-Sunday mornings.

RW	Sunday School.

MP	And then you would go to the Methodist Church in the afternoon.

JS	And sometimes they would have church at night or they would have a program there at night. Now, the Christian Church it was a subsidiary of the Third Christian Church in Bloomington. And sometimes they would invite different ministers and sometimes we'd have a musical or something.

RW	Those were the records I threw out up at the Duff's of the Christian Church down here.

MP	Yes, that was too bad. (laughs) That would have been fantastic. Oh, my goodness. I just wish so much I'd thought of this project before because that would have been a fantastic thing to have. That was probably the only records that anybody had.

RW	I would imagine. Alverta Duff was the secretary.

JS	The superintendent down there.

RW	Superintendent. And they were very, what would you say-methodical?

MP	They were super record-keepers. That is fantastic.

RW	And I was trying to make room. Get stuff out.

MP	So that went.

JS	Never thought no more about that.

RW	No, I know I didn't have any use for it. There was no Duffs left outside Fay and John. Of course, Fay's ill, and John's out in Maryland. He wasn't interested.

MP	Now what does he do? What does your brother John do?

RW	Retired.

MP	Retired from where? From what kind of work, do you know?

RW	He did chauffeuring the biggest part of his life. Then he worked for Navy yard, and he wasn't making any money so he quit and went back to chauffeuring.

MP	In Maryland?

RW	Washington D.C.

MP	Yes. Was he a chauffeur for awhile when he lived here?

RW	Yes. His first job was with the Adlai Stevenson family.

MP	Now, was that the Governor?

RW	Yes, his mother.

MP	He was chauffeur for his mother. Did he ever chauffeur for Adlai? Did he ever go to work for him?

RW	No. he never chauffeured for him, but he would help him out when Adlai was Secretary of the Navy to Knox. Knox was Secretary of the Navy, and Adlai worked for him. He lived in Washington. And when he was entertaining, he'd have my brother John to come over and help.

MP	When he was in Washington?

RW	Yes.

MP	Oh, is that right?

JS	When he was here too, you remember, John would drive him up to when he would go up just going with his wife-the Borden. I can't think of her first name. Was it Ann? But his wife. He would drive Adlai up to see her.

MP	I want to ask you, this is parenthetic, do you think that it would be of any value for me to interview you brother John? Would he be able to give me any insights different from what you've given me or information that would be...

JS	He might.

RW	Yeah, I imagine. How would you do that?

MP	Well, I'm going to be going to Washington next week for a conference.

RW	Oh, you are?

MP	Yes. And I just happened to think...

RW	I could tell him, and he'd probably come and pick you up or something.

MP	I was just thinking if he would... He wouldn't know any more about the Duffs would he because the father...

RW	He should.

MP	Oh would he?

RW	He wouldn't know anything about his father, but he should know about his-the Duff family on Poplar Street.


MP	Because he knew Peter Duff. Did he know Peter Duff?

RW	Yes.

JS	I'm trying to think-he probably would have known Janie. She died when she was quite young.

MP	Who was Janie now?

JS	That was Alverta and Julia's sister.

MP	Oh, yes. How old is he now?

RW	Eighty.

MP	Eighty. Would he be able to.? If you think it would be all right, then, if you want to...

RW	Yes, I can let him know that you'll be out there and well be calling him.

MP	Because I may be able just to talk with him over the phone or something if it's a problem with... He lives in Baltimore?

RW	No. He lives in Bethesda, Maryland right outside of Washington.

MP	yes, I'll be in Washington D C.

RW	He probably would come in. He's still very active. He drives and everything.

MP	Oh, does he? So if you think so.

RW	He'd be happy to visit with you.

MP	I'm going to be there from the fifth, sixth, and seventh of next week.

JS	Of June?

MP	Yes.

JS	That will be next week!

MP	That's next week, yes. Time goes fast, yes it does. Did your mother keep a diary? She was so good with that scrapbook. You don't know if she kept a diary.

JS	I don't think so. I don't recall.

MP	We were talking about organizations that she was active in, and then you were telling me she was active in the Methodist Church.

JS	Yes, anything that they had going on...

MP	Any special activities that she was involved in? Did she sing in the choir or?

JS	We couldn't get her to sing, but she would see to it that we had our little recitations, and they would have little penny suppers and things she would help get that together. I guess like when they would decorate the church, she would help with that.

MP	She would help with that . Now how did you celebrate your birthdays? Did she always make a cake or something? Did you have parties?

RW	Cake and ice cream.

JS	And the neighbor kids.

MP	She'd have children come over.

JS	Yes. Sometimes like when I was just a young teenager, you know, like twelve, thirteen, fourteen years old, I could have little girlfriends come spend the night, and we'd have dinner. Of sometimes she'd have like Melba Henderson (unintelligible) spend the afternoon and have supper with us. And their parents would pick them up and take them back home. That was another thing I noticed. When I'd go visit the girls, I'd catch the bus up here up here at Linden Street. After I arrived at their home, that was a must. I had to call back and let her know that I had arrived.

MP	Oh, is that right? That you had arrived safely.

JS	And after I got home, if I come home on the bus, I had to call my friend's mother and let her know that I got home safely. They were very careful.

MP	She really taught you proper behavior, decorum.

JS	The same way with the girls. If they came out on the bus-if their parents didn't bring them, they had to call and let them know they had arrived safely. And that's good.

MP	Yes. That's right. It is. Did your mother tell you stories?

RW	She'd read.

MP	That's the other thing, did she read to you? Did your mother teach you to read? Who taught you to read?

RW	School.

MP	You didn't read until you went to school?

JS	My brother Walter started me reading before I went to school and to spell my name and address.

RW	I used to get up and go get the paper on Sunday morning off the porch and get in bed with her for her to read the funnies to me. She would start reading, and she would just mispronounce something for devilment, and I'd correct her. She said, "If you can read, why don't you read yourself?" So her reading to me didn't last much longer.

MP	She said, "You can read to yourself , huh?" (laughs) She was testing you really then wasn't she? That's what she was doing is that right?

RW	But I was such a big baby. I always wanted to be up in her lap or get in bed with her.

MP	So she really gave a lot of time to you children, right?

RW	Oh, we were here life.

MP	Her life revolved around the children. Yes.

RW	She would have liked to have lived in Chicago, but she said it was no place to raise a family.

MP	And she's right.

RW	Well, Chicago was better then.

JS	Oh, much better.

MP	Yes, but even so this was a better area, I'm sure.

RW	And she stayed here. She never liked this town because there was nothing here. And like most of the families that they associated with their children left here. Paul Ward is still here. Josephine and I are still here. Of course, she's been gone. She's back home.

MP	But most of them left.

RW	But I'm still here, and I guess I'll die here. But most all the others are gone. They left to make their future elsewhere. Sister Fay left early.

MP	Where did she go when she left?

RW	Chicago.

MP	She went to Chicago. What did she do when she went to Chicago?

RW	She went to school up there. And then she started working.

MP	There were more job opportunities there, right?

RW	Yes.

MP	But here I guess the only thing was available was what?

RW	Housework.

MP	Housework.

JS	See when she went there, by it being a larger community of Negroes, you know, she could work as a postmistress, and then she worked for the government down across the street from the Furniture Mart.

RW	People saving War Bonds used to come in. People'd cash 'em and they'd come in and they'd have to be canceled. She worked in that department. Finally, it got to the point where the money wasn't too much, working for the government, no overtime or anything. So she left that and went into catering.

MP	She set up her own business-catering business? In Chicago?

RW	She went to Chicago at about eighteen years old. She didn't come back here to live until 1984 when we brought her home

MP	That's when she became ill?

RW	Yes.

MP	So she had a pretty good catering business then?

RW	Oh, yes.

JS	And I'll tell you she worked for Arthur Wirtz's daughter. She did a lot of catering for her, and then she also...

RW	She did everything for her except she would not write any checks. [text omitted] She had full responsibility of the children and the apartment. When she was entertaining, Fay seen to it that someone was coming in to clean the apartment, and she was like a personal secretary.

MP	So she really managed everything. What was the name of the person now?

JS	Arthur Wirtz's daughter.

RW	Cynthia MacArthur.

MP	Who is that now?

RW	Arthur Wirtz. He owns the Merchandise Mart building, several of those high-rises on the Gold Coast, and the Stadium. Guess his son is managing it now, running the Chicago Stadium. He was into everything. He was a man who would catch a failing business and put it back on it's feet. It was a Gallo Wine, I think? He and his group bought that up and put it back. He was a German.

End Side B

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