Keep the Heritage Alive!

Reginald Whittaker & Josephine Whittaker Samuels

Transcription of Oral History - Tape 2 - 1986
Narrator: Josephine Whittaker Samuels and Reginald Whittaker
Date: (Unknown) 18, 1986
Interviewer: Mildred Pratt
Side A
MP	Seven.
JS	Eighteenth.
MP	Eighteenth, 1986 and I am speaking with Mrs. Josephine.
JS	Samuels.
MP	Samuels. If you would begin, Mrs. Samuels by giving you name and when and where you were born.
JS	My name is Josephine Whittaker Samuels. I was born in 1922 in Normal, that's Illinois.
MP	What address?
JS	[address omitted]
MP	Right here, right? Were you the first child?
JS	No, I have a half-sister and half-brother, and then I have another brother that is deceased.
MP	Would you give those names please?
JS	Fay Duff Lee and John Robert Duff, and my brother that passed was Walter Whittaker. I have one younger brother here, Reginald.
MP	Tell me your mother now-your father was named Samuels, right?
JS	No. My father was Whittaker, and I married a Samuels.
MP	I'm sorry. I understand that there are-well, let me get that story later because I understand that there were quite a few Samuels and I want to ask you about that, but I will get to that later. Tell me about your early life experiences-where you went to grade school?
JS	I went to grade school here at the Normal Public Schools School, Mulberry, and at that time it was Ash Street, but they call it College now.
MP	What was the name of the school?
JS	That was it-the Normal Public School, the grade school.
MP	The grade school. Did you go to junior high?
JS	Junior high?-it took you to the first eight grades, kindergarten through eighth grade. Then you'd leave there and went to Normal Community High [School], and that was over on Sudduth, which is West College now, and Kingsley. That was your four years and then ISU.
MP	Now you graduated from high school?
JS	Yes, I did.
MP	Approximately how many Black students attended your grade school?
JS	Well, let's see, there were the three Ross children. I am trying to get it together.
MP	If you can give their names, if you remember them.
JS	Let's see. As I can remember, there was Alnathan Ross. There was Herman and his sister, and at that time these were the younger ones-[Easter] Ross. For a while there was Gertrude Marshall. She is Mrs. Stockstell's niece, and she left when she was in the third or fourth grade and went with her mother to Chicago. Then there were the Dabney girls. Let's see, there was Lillian who was in school at that time. There was a Frances, Lucille, Lillian was in the grade school.
RW	Sherma and Geraldine.
JS	They went to Thomas Metcalf. Milton went to the public school, their brother. Lyle went to the public school.
RW	Geraldine Burkhart. Imogene and Margie.
JS	Yes, Imogene and Margaret Sanders. There was Margaret, Roberta and Geraldine. Didn't William go too?
RW	I don't remember.
JS	I believe he did, [William] Burkhart.
RW	They only went a short time, and then they moved away.
JS	They moved to Freeport. (pause) There was Loretta Thomas. Then my brother too, Walter Whittaker went there. Reginald [Whittaker]. Oh, Billy Williams and Gwendolyn Williams.
RW	There was Wilbur Barton, but he was older. He would have been going probably to high school when you were in grade school.
JS	Seems like he went to University High.
RW	Oh, did he? Maybe he did.
MP	So there were quite a few Black students when you were in grade school?
JS	Yes.
MP	Grade school and high school, right?
JS	Right.
RW	Well some of them weren't here too long. They moved either to Bloomington or out of state. I mean out of town.
JS	Oh, the Crawford children.
RW	Clyde Williams.
JS	Yes. Their name was Williams. I was thinking of their mother's maiden name. Clyde, Barbara and Donald.
MP	Now did most of them live in this general area around here?
JS	No, we were pretty well scattered. Now the Rosses lived a block and a half from here. The Bartons right straight through here two blocks, and the Dabneys two blocks on Cherry [Street].
MP	So it was on the east side pretty much where they were located?
JS	Let see, now there was the Anson children. They came along later. Delores. But they would be later on.
RW	They were after me.
JS	Oh, we almost forgot about Gayle Anson. She was older, but she used to go to Normal. Let's see, Elaine Asbie-she went to school out here, too.
MP	Yes, she said that she went to school out here. Now what year did you graduate from high school?
JS	In [19]38.
MP	And then what did you do after that?
JS	I went to ISU.
MP	Did you graduate from ISU?
JS	No, I didn't. I went to ISU a couple of years.
MP	What did you study?
JS	Four-year Elementary.
MP	Elementary Education?
JS	Yes.
MP	You went there two years?
JS	Yes.
MP	Then what did you do?
JS	Then I married.
MP	How old were you when you got married?
JS	Oh, I was about, I think I was about twenty-two when I married. Then I lived in Peoria for a while. Then Decatur.
MP	Did you work at all before you got married?
JS	Oh, I did things like baby sitting and you know little, small jobs.
MP	And then after you got married, was your husband living here in Normal at the time?
JS	No, my husband was from Peoria.
MP	Oh, is that right? Was he a part of the-we were looking through some census material, and we found a long list of Samuels. Do you remember any Samuels who lived here in Normal?
JS	My husband's-this is my second husband. My first husband was (unintelligible). His mother, Mrs. Pearl Samuels, was born out here in Normal, and then he had a cousin that lived-he was born here in Normal. He was a doctor in Alton, Illinois. But there is some more Samuels here that had the same name but weren't related. But then there are some that are related, but I can't get them all together.
MP	So you went to Peoria and your husband was then living in Peoria?
JS	Yes, my first husband.
MP	What kind of work was he doing there?
JS	He had a coal business and also an auto body paint shop.
MP	And how long did you live in Peoria?
JS	I lived there-we lived there about three to four years, and then we moved to Decatur because that is where my first husband's mother was. She was getting up in years, and she needed somebody to be there with her.
MP	When did you come back to Normal?
JS	I came back to Normal, I guess it was about in [19]48 or [19]49.
MP	Did you work in Peoria?
JS	No, I didn't.
MP	In Decatur did you work?
JS	In Decatur I was more or less a housewife.
MP	When you came here?
JS	When I came back home, I stayed with Mother and Dad for a while, and then I worked for the [Fred] Dolans. That's the people that owned the Pantagraph Printing. Then I also worked for the Rusts, Edward B. Rust. The one that died last year, his family. They had three children. Then after the death of my mother-well, I worked for them right after the death of my mother, and then I stayed here with Dad and Brother. Then I decided to-oh, I went to-one of my friends said, "Come on over to this ." You know this beautiful place over there that they had built for teachers. There's a retirement home [Shamel Manor] that they built for teachers, retired teachers and principals. So one day, I said, "Oh, all right, I'll see." Because I did read about it in the Normalite. So I went on over and the minute that I walked in, they hopped on me wanting me to come to work. And I thought, "Oh my, should I do this or not?" About two weeks later, I went over there, and I've been there ever since.
MP	So you have been there for about how many years?
JS	This was my twentieth year.
MP	Well, you have been there a long time.
JS	It is just so interesting, and I went through quite a few changes. After they left-what was so funny about it, is that after they had sold it from the retirement to ECA out of Peoria, they made it into sheltered care and then from that it went into a nursing home. It has been very interesting every step of the way. I have met lots of people. The town has changed so much.
MP	Yes, tell me how it has changed since you were a girl.
JS	First it was-well, Beech Street up here would really be the end [of Normal]. After that would be country, clear over. Going west, let's see, where did it end? Well, I believe starting at about Adelaide wouldn't it, Reggie, be country?
RW	Yes.
JS	North-is you got past Lincoln Street up here, that would all be country. Now you can see for yourself how it's grown. Yes, it's really grown. People have come in and you would never would have the idea that it would grow this much.
MP	Now, I understand that there were quite a few Black businesses. Mr. Whittaker probably told me some things about the Black businesses and churches, but what do you remember about Black businesses in Normal?
JS	In Normal, we had, let's see. We has a blacksmith's shop.
MP	Who owned that one?
JS	Everett Thomas and his brother George Thomas. Mr. Frank Dabney had a barbershop. And two Calimese brothers, Bert and Napoleon Calimese, had-that's all along Beaufort-they had a barbershop there. That's two barbershop and a blacksmith shop. What else did we have? Oh, Mr. Anson had a little store.
MP	A grocery store?
JS	A grocery store.
RW	Well, it was a sort of a little-he had groceries in there, but the purpose of it was for the Black students to have somewhere to go to have a milkshake and a hamburger because in those days, you just didn't go into these white establishments. They wouldn't serve you. So Mrs.-the first wife-Mrs. Anson, Lutie Anson, opened up this little store, and they called it the Chat and Chew.
JS	Then it developed more into a grocery store.
RW	The building is still down there.
MP	The building is still down there?
RW	Yes.
MP	What was the address now?
RW	I think that somebody is living in it. It is right on Fell Avenue, between Locust and Willow.
MP	On Fell Avenue between Locust and Willow.
JS	On the west side of the street. I think that there is two apartment buildings. On Locust Street there is a big house right behind it.
MP	What is it used for now?
RW	I think someone is living in it.
JS	I think they made a home of it.
RW	It was a beauty shop for a while.
MP	Now it is on Fell, between...?
JS	Willow and Locust.
MP	Can you describe the house for me?
RW	Well, if you go down here to Fell and Willow, you turn left.
MP	Turn left.
RW	Well, right there on the southwest corner there is a big long apartment building and that property formerly belonged to Blacks. Right next to it is a kind of a little square building that sets close to the sidewalk. That is the old Chat and Chew.
MP	I am going to try to get a photograph of that.
RW	Right on the corner there is a big house-I guess it is still there. I don't know they are tearing down so much-which Mr. Anson owned. Then next door on Locust Street right around the corner-of course, there is a big apartment building now-was Mr. Anson's home where he lived. The house on the corner he rented out.
MP	So Black people owned quite a bit of property in this area then?
JS	Yes.
RW	About all of the Black people in Normal owned their own property.
MP	Did you say they all did?
RW	Just about all, yes. I don't think any of them were renting out here.
JS	Like the Thomases-they lived right on the corner of Willow and Fell and next door coming this way on Willow Street was the brother, George Thomas. They lived next door to one another. Those were the gentlemen that had the blacksmith's shop.
MP	Now you know what I want you to do. I want you to draw a map of how you remember where most of the Black families lived. Would you do that at some time for me?
JS	Yes.
MP	Great. Now you were talking about, now were there any other businesses that you remember? Was there a cleaning shop here in Bloomington-Normal, that Black people owned?
RW	You mean like for clothing?
MP	Yes.
RW	I don't recall any, myself. Now I don't know.
JS	I don't remember either.
MP	Somebody told me-do you know the Bonds family?
JS	The Bonds family that...
RW	You mean Floyd Bonds?
MP	Yes, Floyd Bonds. Where did they live?
RW	Bloomington.
MP	Oh, they lived in Bloomington. Not in Normal?
RW	No.
JS	No, not at that time, but they are living in Normal now.
MP	But they didn't before?
RW	No.
MP	Oh, I see, that is what I was wondering about. So those are about the only businesses that you remember then?
RW	Yes, in Normal.
MP	I know Mr. Whittaker told me about your parents. That your father had a college degree. Do you want to say anything about that? What you remember.
JS	He graduated from Wilberforce, in Xenia, Ohio. He also went to school, I think, a year at ISU.
MP	Do you know how it happened that he went to Wilberforce?
JS	No, I don't remember him ever saying why he decided to go there. I think that they also taught a trade there, too. He was very good in math.
MP	Yes, your brother said he was. You know, Mr. Whittaker that is a very good reason that it is a good that you gave some things to that museum in Ohio because some people there would probably remember your father.
RW	Oh, this was the Duff things that I gave them.
MP	That is right.
RW	Well, they bought, rather. I didn't have anything.
MP	You don't have anything from you father, is that right?
RW	No.
MP	That would be nice if you had some things from you father because there will probably be people there that remember him.
JS	Well, one year, I think they'd been out East, and they ran into-they stopped in Xenia, and they saw one of the professors. Dad got to see one of the professors he had.
MP	How did your father and your mother think about girls getting an education? A college education?
JS	At that time, I don't know, it seems like they was kind of looking down the road. It kind of felt like they were going to need this-because at one time they thought that marriage was, you know, at that age we thought marriage was the thing for the girls. (Inaudible) they kept saying to get all of the education that you can.
MP	Was you father primarily responsible for the fact that you went to ISU do you remember?
JS	I think, well that and not only that, but I think the environment.
RW	My mother was high on education. Very high on education.
JS	The school children, you know. The students coming in here from other places. I just noticed that the kids in Normal always kind of liked the idea of going to school. Plus you are kind of proud of having two universities.
MP	Yes, that is true. That is right.
JS	You associated with college children-or they are young ladies at that time. (inaudible)
MP	Were there any Black teachers in your public school or at ISU?
RW	No.
MP	I thought the answer would be "no," but I wanted to be sure to ask that.
RW	Black teachers didn't come about here until about the late fifties or early sixties.
JS	Sixties, I believe.
RW	That's been that recent.
MP	Have any Blacks to your knowledge ever been involved in politics as you were growing up in Normal. Or did they have jobs in the government of Normal?
RW	Well, Everett Thomas used to work on the city street department, if you call that government. (laughter) In his later years, you know kind of on his way out, you might say. You mean like sitting on the council or something of that nature?
MP	In any kind of capacity.
RW	I don't recall any during my lifetime.
MP	Except as a street cleaner?
RW	I don't recall anyone during my lifetime.
JS	Only like at voting time, Juanita used to be interested in getting people to come to vote.
MP	What was Juanita's last name?
RW	Dabney.
MP	Oh, she did, she went around and tried to get people to register to vote.
JS	And seeing to it that they get down to the poles. I can remember that.
MP	What year was that?
RW	Thirties on up. Until she became, you know, immobile. You know that was back in the days when all of the Blacks were Republican around here.
MP	That is one thing that I have not talked with anybody about, and that is interesting. So most of the Black people in Normal and Bloomington to your knowledge were Republican?
RW	Yes.
MP	How do you account for that?
RW	I guess, Abraham Lincoln began that. He freed the slaves. (laughter) No, I don't know why.
MP	That may very well be.
JS	I think that.
RW	Well, there's a little more intelligent.
MP	During the Reconstruction period, they would have.
JS	Yes.
MP	Were they active in trying to get people elected? Blacks were?
RW	Yes. They used to come around and have my father go around and hand out their little cards and things on the streets to help them out. Certain candidates, you know. He had been around her for so long that he knew a lot of them. They grew up together, and he would help them out. I think that he was voting Republican in those days, too.
MP	When did it change? When did Blacks become...
RW	I would imagine during the Roosevelt Administration, about his second term, I would say.
MP	Do you remember-let's see, you were born when Mrs. Samuels?
JS	In [19]22.
MP	But you do know what the Depression period was like. I was going to ask you about that. Do you know something about the Depression era?
JS	Yes when the-it seems like you could hear about everybody jumping out of the buildings you know in New York, the crash. That was in [19]29. I don't know, it seems like around here people had gardens, and.
MP	They owned their own homes.
JS	They owned their homes. Seems like they got along pretty well.
RW	This area was what you would call a conservative area, and it doesn't have a high and a low. The biggest boom around here was the couple or three war plants we had going during World War II. So things more or less stayed at a level. Naturally most of the people here-what jobs they had, why they made do with the amount of money they made. They were able to by their homes and what have you.
MP	What about World War I, did you have any relatives who served in World War I?
RW	None of us-our immediate family did, but I don't know. My father didn't. I don't know about his two brothers whether they were living then or not. But there used to be some pictures here of them in uniform.
MP	Of your father's brothers?
RW	Maybe it was some kind of National Guard.
JS	That must have been in World War I.
RW	I don't even know when they passed.
MP	What about World War II? Did very many Blacks from Normal go to World War II that you know of?
RW	All that were healthy.
JS	Lyle, he had to go, didn't he? Was he in World War II?
RW	Yes.
JS	He was in the Philippines. Lyle Dabney.
RW	But during that time, there weren't that many young Blacks here in Normal. We had got down to the point that we could count the Blacks living in Normal. Mostly just old established families. Their children had left if they had any.
MP	Why did they leave?
RW	For opportunities because there was nothing here in the way of work for those who had finished high school. Back then, finishing high school was doing good then. Some went on to college. Well, naturally they went mostly South where they could teach. The others that didn't, they went to Chicago or St. Louis where they could get a little more decent job. Around here there was janitor work and private home work mainly.
MP	What about during World War II, did many Blacks get jobs in the industries that were converted to...?
RW	Un-huh.
JS	Yes. That seemed to be when they really started blossoming out.
MP	Did women get involved? I mention women because in some areas specifically women got involved in helping out in the war effort in any way, to your knowledge?
RW	You mean like War Mothers?
MP	Yes.
RW	They had a War Mother's Club here. Not in Normal necessarily. It was kind of a combined effort in Bloomington-Normal.
MP	It was called the War Mothers Club?
RW	Yes. I think that's what they called it.
MP	What did it do?
RW	I don't know. At that time, I didn't. I was busy over on the campus.
MP	What were you doing there?
RW	Girlfriend.
MP	Oh, excuse me Mr. Whittaker. (laughter) You didn't have time for the war effort.
RW	I didn't have time to talk about the War Mothers. I cared less what they were doing.
MP	All you knew is that some of the ladies talked about the War Mothers.
RW	They also had an organization here called the Fred Hutchinson organization.
MP	Fred Hutchinson organization? What was that about?
RW	As they would leave from the station to go to Chicago for their induction, the boys. They would have their uniforms on-the Fred Hutchinson organization, and they would be down there giving you chewing gum and candy bars and things like that. Now Fred Hutchinson, evidently was a Black person that was of renown, I guess, because it was a Black organization. I am guessing there.
MP	But it was named Fred Hutchinson?
RW	Yes, and they would take the college girls over to Camp Ellis on Saturday night. Not only college-any of the girls around Bloomington-Normal. They would go over there and dance with the soldiers, that was over by Peoria.
MP	Camp Ellis?
RW	South and west of Peoria, around Bartonville in that area. On Saturday. Not every Saturday. I don't know whether it would be one Saturday a month or something, but they would take a bus and they'd go over there and dance with the soldiers. Kind of like a canteen. Golden Scott was living here in Normal at that time...
MP	Golden Scott?
JS	She was a student.
RW	She was the head of it.
JS	And then she married Manuel...
RW	Manuel, I can't think of his last name. I always called him Manuel.
JS	He was from Lewistown, Illinois. I wish I could think of his name. I can see him now. Oh, I think that was his name-Harold Manuel.
RW	Oh, was it?
MP	Harold Manuel?
JS	Un-huh. Now, they live in Gary, now.
MP	So that Hutchinson Club, maybe I will come across that name someplace else?
RW	I will tell you. Ruth Waddell could tell you about that. She was in it. I think, in or else she.
JS	Didn't they have a camp over here?
RW	Had a camp where?
JS	You know of soldiers over here?
MP	Camp Attaberry was it?
JS	No, over here in Rantoul. Camp Attaberry was out of Indianapolis, Indiana. The girls would go over. They'd take them over and be hostesses and things. They would entertain, which was kind of nice. Some of the girls got husbands, I think. (laughter)
MP	Would you tell me now about the Duff family and their involvement with Stevenson family. There were some interesting little tidbits of stories that you were telling about, Mr. Whittaker. Who was it who worked for the Duffs?
RW	Alverta Duff.
MP	Alberta?
JS	Alverta. A-L-V-E-R-T-A.
RW	She worked for Helen Stevenson, mother of Adlai and Elizabeth. Adlai Stevenson and Elizabeth Ives. I think her brother George worked out there, off and on-George Duff. Then as I understand it, she got my brother John a job out there as a chauffeur, and he worked out there for maybe for three or four years. In those days, that was a good job.
MP	I should think that it was.
RW	I think, (CB interference)
MP	What did she do there?
RW	Just whatever they wanted done. She would take care of the house.
MP	Take care of the children? Little Adlai.
RW	Yes, and Elizabeth, and naturally clean and help. I don't think she did any cooking. I think that they normally had a cook, someone else. She was sort of a...
MP	Did she live with them?
RW	No, she lived up here. When they were out of state or something, she might would stay out there at the house some nights. Something of that nature. But she normally came home every night up here on 107 Poplar-West Poplar
MP	Did she ever travel with them?
RW	I don't think so. Yes, I believe she did go to Florida with them.
JS	Yes, she did go to Florida with them. It seems like she went to Carolina, too.
RW	Well, they always went through Carolina to Florida.
JS	Oh, yes, I know they did, but it seemed that they went down there for a little while. She was quite a member of their family.
MP	Oh, is that right?
RW	She was-she and George were the only two of that family, and of course Julia taught school. Her sister Julia was away at school. She went over to Ames, Iowa. I don't know where all she went. She went to Normal. Just where she finished, I don't know if it was Normal or Ames, Iowa. But anyway she taught school down in Tulsa, Oklahoma and then I think she taught down in.
JS	Selma.
RW	Selma, Alabama, for a while. She was gone a lot. Would come home in the summer time, but Alverta stayed here and worked for the Stevensons.
MP	Did she get married, Alverta?
RW	No.
JS	Neither one of the girls got married.
MP	Did Alverta ever talk about, tell you any interesting stories about the Stevenson family?
RW	No. That was a no-no.
MP	Oh, is that right? That's interesting. Was there kind of a contract that she would not discuss what happened in the family.
RW	No, it was a matter of being a-there were people that did that work that would do that. But if you were a loyal and a person that does what you're supposed-it was sort of an unwritten law. You don't talk about.
MP	How long did she work for them? When did she stop working?
RW	She probably stopped working for them around 1965 or [19]64.
MP	She was working there when Adlai Stevenson ran for President, is that right?
RW	Oh yes, yes. We had a picture of.
MP	Oh yes, we got that picture of her.
RW	Well, of her handing him a-he came through on the train campaigning, and she was at the station, and they had her to hand him a big thing of roses, I think. He was standing on the back of the train. I think that my mother put that in her. I thought it was in her scrapbook, but it wouldn't be because she passed in 1952.
JS	I think that we sent that picture to Fay.
RW	Maybe so.
JS	Out of the paper.
RW	Well, anyway, there is this picture of her handing these roses to Adlai at the train. She told him that if they don't make a good cup of coffee down in Washington, I will come down and fix it for you.
MP	If he may have become president, maybe she would have gone. I think that should be in the Pantagraph some place.
RW	It would be in their archives.
MP	So that was around 1960?
RW	[19]52. That's when he was running.
MP	1952. Yes, I will check for that.
JS	Did he run twice for President? I know that he was Governor.
RW	Let's see. He was-because the train came through here and mother passed in October. They voted that next month in November so my mother was still living when that was in the paper. I think that he did, but he waited so late to decide that it didn't do any good. I forget who he ran against. Was it Nixon? Well, it wasn't important.
JS	I can't remember it anyway.
RW	He ran against Eisenhower. I thought for sure he was a shoo-in, but...
MP	Eisenhower was very popular.
RW	Well, the war. He was going to bring the mothers' boys home from Korea.
JS	(Unintelligible).
RW	So, I don't know. My brother when he worked for the Stevensons, he never talked about them much either.
MP	He was a chauffeur?
RW	Yes, for Mrs. Helen-Adlai and Elizabeth's mother.
JS	He only worked for about four years there.
RW	I would say for about four or five years. He left their service in 1934, I believe, or [19]35, I don't remember.
End Side A
Side B
MP	How many Black churches were in Normal to your knowledge?
JS	I remember there was the little Methodist Church on Fell Avenue that is between Willow Avenue and across the street.
MP	Yes. Yes.
JS	We had a little Christian Church right down here up on the corner of Cherry and Linden.
RW	Julia told me that there was a Baptist Church up on the corner of Cherry and Fell on the northeast corner.
JS	You know, that might have been, too.
RW	She told me that. It must have been way back there.
JS	It seems like there was a great big house there, and I think that somebody said that that had been a church, and it looked like it had been split and made two homes out of it. I couldn't hardly believe it you know. So it could have very well been.
MP	Are any of those building still standing?
RW	No.
MP	They all have been demolished?
JS	And it hasn't been too long ago either had it, Reggie? 'Cause the Daniels made a home out of the Methodist Church.
RW	It has been a while.
JS	Now they have those apartments there. Right here on the corner of Cherry where the little Christian Church stood, they have a little ranch style home there, now. And it hasn't been too long ago.
MP	When did the churches discontinue being churches?
JS	That would have happened back in [19]30's.
MP	Was that when most Black people started moving out in the 1930's?
MP	I see, yes.
RW	But the Baptist church, that must have been, I don't even remember that. But Julia Duff told me that was where it was, and I couldn't believe it.
MP	Now, were your parents active in any church?
RW	They used to attend this Christian Church...
MP	Both of your parents?
RW	They didn't belong, but they attended. We would go to Sunday School there.
JS	Now when the Methodist Church was going, too, I think they would have a service in the afternoon. Maybe some evenings they would go down there in afternoons and evenings on Sundays, and then they would go down to the little Christian Church on Sunday morning.
MP	So they frequented both of them than. But they never joined?
JS	Now, my grandparents were Methodist.
MP	Is that right? Who were your grandparents, we didn't talk about that?
JS	That was my father's people, the Whittakers.
MP	The Duffs?
RW	No, Whittaker. The Duffs are no relation to us.
MP	That's right. Now, I understand. So you father's family lived in this house?
JS	Yes, they lived in this house.
MP	Your grandfather? Is that right?
JS	This is a family home?
MP	You have probably told us that, and I didn't remember.
RW	Yes, my grandfather...
MP	Did your grandfather build this home?
RW	No, he bought it.
JS	And they lived here. Let's see, my father died when he was eighty-three.
RW	Eighty-four.
JS	Eighty-four years old. Well, my grandfather moved here from Baton Rouge, and Dad was eight years. He was the oldest one in the family. He brought him here when he was eight years old. He died at eighty-four.
MP	Your grandfather lived in Baton Rouge, and left there when he was eight.
JS	He bought my father here when he was eight years old.
MP	Was your grandfather part of the slavery system to your knowledge"
RW	I don't know.
JS	I don't think so because I have never heard-the only one I know of that was of that slavery was Mrs. Chlora Walton who used to live over here on 408 East Cherry Street.
MP	Her family...
JS	Just about all of her family is expired except the Burkharts. There's some of them living up Freeport.
RW	Arlene is still living in Jacksonville.
MP	You mentioned that. So your father came here-your grandfather came here, bought this house. What did your grandfather do for a living?
JS	Well he was like-Dad had spoke to me like they had a house-cleaning service. He also helped plant these trees and things around Normal for Jesse Fell.
MP	Did you tell me that Mr. Whittaker?
RW	I think I did.
MP	I think that you did, also, I vaguely remember.
JS	His name was Oliver Walter Whittaker.
MP	He lived until he was eighty-four?
JS	No, that was our father.
RW	We don't know when our grandfather died.
JS	I never did get to see grandfather.
MP	Isn't that interesting. Then he lived her- your grandfather. He bought the house and lived here, and then your father lived here. I think that's absolutely fascinating. So this house must be how old? Do you know when it was constructed?
RW	No, my mother told me that this room we're in and next room was moved out here from Bloomington and set here. I guess my grandfather did some building on to it. It has been changed so much. I think that my mother and father when they married, they bought the estate in, and they did a lot of remodeling and changing. Since then, it's been done again.
MP	I imagine that you could check you deed and find out when it was constructed.
RW	I don't know. I have never found the deed to this house.
MP	You never found the deed to the house? It would be down at the courthouse on record there.
RW	Well, yes we never had-my father never had a deed. I guess it was just a matter of he didn't want to have all of that expense of having all that work done searching for it.
MP	Well, we have your grandfather's name on the tape so I can send somebody down to check it if you'd like. Would that be all right with you?
RW	It's all right with me.
MP	All right, because I think this is fascinating. This is a very old house.
JS	I think that is the same way with the Barton house, too, down there.
RW	What that it was moved out here?
JS	No, it wasn't moved, but it has been there-a family home.
MP	Yes, it had been there a long time. We were talking about Mr. Koos taking a photo of the interior.
RW	Of the Duff house?
MP	Yes. Were you going to call him?
RW	Yes, I can call him.
MP	Then you can set up an appointment for him to do it because he really wants to do that. I think that that is a very interesting house.
JS	I think that's the one their father built, isn't it.
MP	I think that is what they said.
JS	And also their father built that Third Christian Church.
MP	Oh, he did, is that right?
JS	Peter Duff.
RW	He also came here and worked for Jesse Fell.
MP	Your grandfather?
RW	Peter Duff.
MP	It seems like there were quite a few people came here to work for Jesse Fell. There was Lucinda Posey's grandfather, who was supposed to be a full-blooded Indian, I understand, who came with Jesse Fell.
JS	Now that's-Dorothy Stockstell and Lucinda Posey are first cousins and the Dabneys. Mrs. Dabney, Mr. Barton, and Lucinda's mother were brothers and sisters.
MP	Yes. So Jesse Fell liked trees then?
JS	Oh, he loved his trees. This used to be what you called Evergreen City. But see, they had that Elm disease-just took those gorgeous great big trees. Oh, it was beautiful, all up and down the-just made archways.
RW	I think Jesse Fell owned practically all of this area.
JS	I think he did.
RW	The town.
JS	Donated all that property to the school.
RW	The town and this end north of Bloomington. I think he owned almost all of this.
MP	And then, the Black people that bought property then is it likely the they bought it from him?
RW	I think so. Elizabeth Ives, which would have been a great, great granddaughter of his, she said that he gave the property to the Duffs up there-he gave that to Peter. But I don't think so. I think he sold it to him.
MP	So that is one way, we can check and look at the property that Jesse Fell owned and then see how many Blacks bought from him.
RW	Now, my neighbor next door, she said that Jesse Fell's signature is on her deed.
MP	Oh, is that right.
JS	Isn't that something?
RW	She-there was a young white girl that was doing a thesis on Jesse Fell over at the school. Somebody told her to go talk to our neighbor. They're white too, a little house back there. Of course, she didn't know much about the man. Anyway, I guess this girl came up with some interesting things on Jesse Fell. She said that at one time this park over here was a farmer's market. They used to pull their wagons up in there and set up their wares, the farmer's did. Their vegetables and what have you. That must be going way back.
MP	Yes, that would.
RW	This park is a national shrine now.
MP	Oh, it is?
RW	Yes, that's why these streets are all fixed up around here. And that water tower-of course, they took the steel part down, but that was the first one, I think, in the country of it's kind. It gave the-they pumped the water up in there and that would give the pressure for the town so you could have water in your house. I guess Jesse Fell brought quite a few Negroes or was the cause of them coming here to Normal to work for him.
MP	We must check about that because if we find the history of his life, we certainly ought to get a lot of information about.
RW	It might be that you could find out a lot about some of the [Negroes] around. It could be a possibility as to why my grandfather came here. I don't know. My father didn't talk much about his family. Like I told you before-if you'd ask him, he would tell you. He'd answer, but to just come out and start telling you, he just didn't do it. He was always reading something of that nature.
MP	Did your mother talk very much about her life?
RW	Yes, she did.
MP	She was more talkative?
RW	Yes, my dad was reserved, very quiet.
MP	He was really more an academician right, a scholar?
RW	Yes.
MP	But a frustrated one, I suppose. He didn't have a chance to an opportunity to do what he wanted.
RW	I guess. I would imagine so. I understand his-he got his degree in business administration. Back in those days, that was about as useless as a three-dollar bill to Blacks. But that is what he chose. I don't know why, but that is what he chose to do because most Blacks were doing trades then, going into trades. And even if you had a trade, you didn't work at up this way too much. But I would like to know more, too. I don't know how I could go about finding out about it. I have been intending to go down and look up their death certificates-my grandparents Whittaker. It should be in the courthouse.
MP	Now, I am asking for a history student for next semester because that's the kind of thing that I want the history student to do-to go check out the death records and see what information they can get from those.
RW	Yes, they a little history on those. Well they do now. I don't know about back then. I guess when my grandfather and grandmother Whittaker died, they had death certificates. You see, I don't even know when they died.
MP	Were they dead before you were born?
RW	Oh my goodness, yes. My grandmother died before my mother and father were even married. Then my grandfather-I think that when my mother and father had married, I think he had died.
MP	I need a photograph of you, Mrs. Samuels, if you could...
JS	You need a photograph of me?
MP	Do you have a photo when you were a little girl?
JS	I was trying to think. We used to have a lot of those pictures. Now where they are now, I don't know.
MP	You people should have a lot everything because you have been in this house, and you never had a fire. So you should have all kinds of stuff here.
RW	Well, we would but we have a sister, Fay. She used to would come home, and she'd start throwing stuff out.
MP	Yes, is that right?
JS	Well, you had a chance to look through the Duff Bible, didn't you?
MP	Yes, I took a photograph of that. Yes, that was great. So she started throwing things out on you?
RW	Yes, she would come home and she'd just start hauling things to the basement and throwing them in the furnace.
MP	Is that right?
RW	Yes, because she said that we don't need to keep all of this stuff, junk. Get rid of it.
RW	She was a very particular person. She wanted everything just so. She would come home and the house wouldn't-my mother was also an excellent housekeeper, but Fay was very...
JS	Kind of a fanatic about it.
RW	Yes, she would want things changed. She didn't like the wallpaper. "You don't use that kind anymore." So she would instruct some of us to change it.
MP	And she would just throw things out.
RW	Yes, she would gather things up and take them down and burn them in the furnace.
JS	I think that is what happened to a lot of those pictures.
RW	Of course, that is what happened to a lot of our... Of course, my mother would go on those cleaning out rampages, too. She would start getting rid of stuff. Well. you never...
MP	Sometimes you don't think about things like that. But you see the point is that with Normal, for example-there are more Black people in Bloomington, you know, who are older. But in Normal, you're just about the only ones that I can rely on for materials unless I am able to convince Mrs. Stockstell to talk.
JS	I wonder why Cephas Ross wouldn't talk.
MP	Do you know him very well?
JS	I have know him for years, but.
RW	[text omitted]
MP	He likes music. He really likes music. When I first went and knocked on his door. I went and talked to him for about forty-five minutes, and he was interested in the project, and I really thought he would have.
RW	He has some very-how would you say, very strange, in my opinion, strange ideas and thoughts. He has belonged to the Holiness Church for many, many years. His daughter was here. She lives in Springfield. She was here last Friday night. So I was talking to her. She is a niece of Ethel Murray. So I was talking to her Saturday morning on the phone, and I said, "Dr. Pratt was over talking to your dad."She said, "Oh, did he talk to her?" I said, "Well, she said that he did, but he didn't care to be taped or anything." And she was telling me some of the things-for one thing he wants to be known as a nice Colored man. "The people of Normal know me as a very nice Colored man." He didn't want the word 'Black" used in regards to him. He talks like that. Well, I don't like it either, but I have to go with it. (laughs)
MP	Well, maybe I made an error. I should have been more careful to have used Colored or Negro.
RW	Well, you had no way of knowing and I don't think-knowing him as I think I do, I don't...
MP	He was very nice when I was there, you know. We talked about music because I like music, and I thought that was really interesting. He liked all kinds of music-classical music. So his daughter, is that right, is Mrs. Murray's niece?
RW	Yes.
MP	She is Mrs. Murray's niece.
RW	Yes, because he was married to Ethel's sister.
MP	Well, maybe she can talk with him?
RW	Who Elaine?
MP	No, Mrs. Murray, do you think?
RW	Well, she is from Lincoln, Illinois.
MP	No, but do you think that she would, that he would permit her to interview him?
RW	No, he doesn't-that is another...
MP	All right. I won't disturb that.
RW	Well, like I say he is different.
MP	Yes, that is right, I understand.
RW	And he had hard feelings toward Ethel, but Ethel doesn't have any towards him. Why I don't know, and she doesn't either.
MP	I think that it is interesting that he had a job at the post office for a long time.
RW	Yes, he retired from the Normal post office. Before that he worked over at the Normal Theater, and I don't know what he did prior to that. But I haven't seen him in several years. I can almost stand out in the back yard and look across over there to his house.
MP	Yes, I am sure.
RW	But I just never see him. Of course, I don't go anywhere for one thing, other than work and back home.
MP	I have to ask you one thing, can you to our meetings now. We have one on the sixth of December. That is on a Saturday morning.
JS	I will try. I will sure try because it sound like it would be very interesting.
MP	I will send you a letter because I have to send it with all the information, and I think that you would enjoy it.
RW	Is Wilbur Barton coming back over for you, do you know?
MP	He said that he was, and I am sending him the letter with all of the information. And I saw Mrs. Posey a couple of weeks ago, and she said that he thought that he might be able to come.
JS	That's Mrs. Stockstell's brother.
MP	Oh, yes.
RW	Ethel was trying to get her niece's husband, Elaine-their name is Anderson, James Anderson. He worked on a similar project with what was his name Dr.-he used to be here. Howard Bell worked on that same project.
MP	A history project. I just can't remember his name.
RW	I think that he went to Howard.
MP	It was Durham. Dr. Durham.
RW	With him. They lived here in Bloomington, and of course Elaine being Cephas Ross's daughter, they lived over there in the house. She was born over there. But James worked with Dr. Durham on a project.
MP	That is her husband-James Durham?