Keep the Heritage Alive!

Roy and Delores Shavers

Roy & Delores Shavers - Tape 2 - Late 1986
Narrators: Delores Shavers and Roy Shavers
Interviewer: Mildred Pratt
Date: late 1986
Side A
MP	I'm in the home of Mr. and Mrs. Roy Shavers. Mr. Shavers is now going to speak about some of the Black businesses, as many as he can recall.
RS	Well, I'm going to start out with most-as you know, our people was death on having restaurants. So I'm going to give you a list of Black restaurants. That would be Frank Harber's restaurant and a Klink Stevenson restaurant and a Mrs. Rush, Mr. and Mrs. Fred Rush restaurant. Now that takes care of the restaurants.
MP	Now, these were the restaurants located in Bloomington.
RS	Yes, all in Bloomington.
MP	Do you know of any that were in Normal?
RS	No, in fact there was no Black restaurants in Normal until latter years they had what they called The Chat and Chew Restaurant, a little sandwich place for students. Mostly students, but they didn't get no regular meals. Kind of a little place they could get sandwiches, and they could get pop and like that, mostly for the Black students.
MP	Were most of the restaurants that were in Bloomington located in the downtown section of Bloomington?
RS	Well yes, because Mrs. Rush was practically right where the city hall is now. Yeah, the city hall is now that area, see, that's right up in town. And the Klink Stevenson restaurant was on South Main Street right downtown. Let me see, Frank Harber's restaurant was on Main Street. Well, he was in about the three hundred block under the viaduct. So that's practically downtown. Now, I'll give you a list of barbers.
MP	Let me backtrack on the restaurants for a moment. Did any of these people own the buildings, to your knowledge, in which they operated the businesses?
RS	No, but the person that owned that building, one building, he had a club and I was going to get to that later. In fact, he owned the building. Where the Nolan barbershop and the Frank Harber restaurant was located was owned by a Mr. Johnson, nicknamed "Dime" Johnson. (laughs)
MP	Why was that? Do you know how he got that nickname?
RS	His nickname was Dime Johnson. He owned the building and also had a club in the same building. Let's see, how about the barbers?
MP	All right, great.
RS	One of the oldest barbers-well, in the latter part of the twenties, I remember as a boy-was Nolan's barbershop. It was on South Main Street under the viaduct in the same building that Mr. Johnson had the club. Then we had the AdolphYoung barbershop. He was a barber here for years and years. He was originally from Carlyle, Illinois. He died about. He's only been dead about four or five years. Since then the Gastons, father and son, opened a barbershop.
MP	Did they open that originally in Normal or Bloomington?
RS	They opened that barbershop originally in Bloomington over on Center Street. In fact, they was right on the square at one time across from the courthouse. Then they moved down further on Center Street, and then they decided to try to go to Normal. Now they're back in Bloomington. So that takes care of the barbershops. We had-getting back to the Rushes, Fred Rush, that had the restaurant, he also had the only pawn shop ever had in Bloomington. He bought and sold-and it was on Center Street-clothing, watches, jewelry. You name it; he had it. Only pawn shop Bloomington ever had had. He was one of the leading Black businessmen in this town.
MP	What was the Rush first name?
RS	Fred Rush.
MP	Fred Rush. All right.
RS	Let's see, the pawn shop. As far as doctors, I know you've got Dr. Covington, our leading Black doctor. We also had a Dr. Glascoe.
MP	Do you know his first name?'
RS	No, I don't know. I don't remember Dr. Glascoe's [name]. In fact, he had rented the same office that Dr. Covington had which was right next to the Covington home on Market Street. We also had a Dr. Thatcher [sic] here. Now, this Dr. Thatcher.
DS	Was he the undertaker?
RS	No, Dr. Thatcher was here for a while, and I've heard recently that he is out East doing very, very well.
DS	In Cleveland.
RS	Yeah, I believe it is Cleveland. We did have a.
DS	a dentist, but I can't think of his name.
RS	Was Dr. Glascoe a medical doctor or dentist?
DS	Dr. Glascoe, who couldn't talk?
RS	Yeah.
DS	He was a medical doctor.
RS	I thought he was a medical doctor.
MP	He couldn't talk?
DS	He was sort of tongue-tied. Because he tried to go with me. That's why I.
MP	So, you know. (laughter)
RS	Don't need to bring that up.
DS	I wasn't married at the time, but I roomed at the Covington's home, and his office was next door. I never went out with him, but he was always calling me, you know.
MP	But he couldn't speak well.
DS	No, no.
RS	He stuttered or something.
DS	Yeah, un-huh. He thought he was important.
MP	He wasn't important enough for you, right? (laughs)
RS	On the latter years. When I say latter years, we'd say from the-in the thirties we had Richard Bell. He had an automobile body shop and paint shop.
DS	What about (Inaudible) Lewis?
RS	I'll get to him. He didn't own nothing. He just worked. We're talking about owners. Richard Bell Body Shop, and it was located on Center Street. Then latter-later on he built his own building out on. That would be close to Route 66. Anyway, he's retired now, and he become a farmer. And now he's retired practically altogether, bad health has caused him to retire.
MP	Didn't he have some kind of an aMuseument center?
RS	He had a little skating. Well, at one time he had a club. He had a club out there, and he sold that and tried to have a skating rink. He's been in several different things. Very successful.
MP	Yes, that's my impression.
RS	Let's see, right now after Richard went out of business, retired. I'm retired and that practically takes care of all the businesses that amounted to. Let's see, that takes care of it. Well, right now we still have a social club, I guess. (laughs) It's still under the viaduct.
MP	What's it called, Under the Viaduct?
RS	Third Ward Club.
MP	Who started that, do you know?
RS	The Third Ward Club was founded by a fellow by the name of Revy Rhoades.
MP	Revy Rhoades, yes.
RS	Revy Rhoades, a Black politician out of Chicago. He was a good one.
MP	Did he get involved in politics here?
RS	Oh, yes very much-in politics, and he was a sign painter. He was very capable, and he had started up several social things for the students and a dance hall where the students could go.
DS	He could tap dance.
RS	Yeah, he could tap dance.
DS	He was originally from Chicago, and his brother was a big politician in Chicago. So he really started this Third Ward Club, and now it's owned by Claude Hursey. Now, it's changed hands. At one time, Harry Woods owned it. He's dead. That's about the only social club they've ever had around here.
MP	What about his involvement in politics-what kind of political activities was he involved in? Did he try to get Blacks elected to office?
RS	He'd try to steer them the right way. In those days, who to vote for and give them a lot of good information.
DS	And he hired cars to take.
RS	to take them to the polls. Very active in politics from presidential down to the county, and he was capable. Very intelligent. Beautiful sign painter. He made signs for all the different businesses here in town.
MP	How long did he remain in Bloomington?
RS	He was in Bloomington until he died. He left here and went back to Chicago. He was only in Chicago a short time before he died. I think he left Bloomington. Had he left Bloomington when we got married? I think he had.
DS	Let me see, because I worked at Klein's. Yeah, I believe he had. He hadn't been gone too long.
RS	I think he left Bloomington about.
DS	about [19]30 or [19]31.
RS	Near as I can remember. He was in Chicago just a short time before he passed, but he was a well-known figure. Everybody knew him in the area.
MP	Did anybody else pick up this political activity?
RS	No.
MP	That's interesting because this part. This is the first discussion about involvement of Blacks in politics. So this is very helpful.
RS	Because during that time the whites had a pick, didn't have to worry about the Black votes, you know. Just know they was going vote Republican. (laughs) So they didn't put too much stress on. You know what I mean.
MP	Was he more involved with Republican or Democratic?
RS	He was really for the man, the man he thought would do something for the Black. And he had some pretty good choices, too, if I remember right.
MP	Did he himself actually align himself with any one politician that he worked for?
RS	Well now, he was. Let's see, offhand I really don't remember, but me being young in those days I wasn't too much involved, but I knew him personally. I knew him very well.
MP	So his major concern was that Black people involve themselves.
RS	That's right.
DS	He would get cars for you to go pick up the people who had no way of getting to the polls.
RS	He was about the only person I know who was really active politically.
MP	You mentioned a Lewis.
RS	Earl, right. He didn't own a business. He just worked in a business. [in 1930s and 1940s he was an auto mechanic for Bloomington Radiator and Body Works] Well now, there's (chuckles) of course that's going back too far.
MP	No, go back as far as you can.
RS	I'm trying to remember. Well, the man who really taught me, encouraged me to go into the housecleaning business was Mr. Ed Bynum.
MP	Would you spell that name, please?
DS	B-Y-N-M-U-M. [sic]
RS	I worked for him, and he had a housecleaning business. He was one of the first house cleaners in town. Now he had a regular business. He run it out of his home, and he was good. And I practically learned the business under him. He was one of the old, old-timers here in town. And let me see-I always thought a lot of the Bynums. They was a social family. It goes back to when Fred Rush and them. Of course, I was a kid, but I remember them. I think that pretty well.
MP	Now Normal had some barbers.
RS	Yeah, Normal had barbers, but they wouldn't cater to us. They catered only to whites. That's the reason I wasn't too interested to talk. Yeah, the Calimese was fine barbers.
MP	But they would not.
RS	White only.
MP	The only ones for Blacks were the ones you mentioned. Now, tell me, someone mentioned something to the effect that there was a Black person who was barber for President Lincoln. Do you know anything about that?
RS	No.
MP	From Bloomington He was called. And Lincoln remembered him in his will with something. He was from Bloomington.
RS	I never heard of that.
MP	Well, shall we go to the Pythians?
RS	Where is that?
MP	Now that's the organization of it, isn't it?
RS	There it is. That's the article, and this is one of the sabers. That's one of the sabers.
MP	Do you know how old this. Any idea?
RS	No, I don't. William H. Crawford. William H. Crawford was.
DS	My stepmother's stepfather.
MP	Your stepmother's stepfather, and he was the one to whom that belonged.
RS	His name's engraved here, but it's the same lodge that Frank organized. He organized it.
MP	There is no date on that.
RS	No, I tried to find a date on here, but you got the date right there when it was organized.
MP	No, it's not on here. No, the date is not on there.
DS	It's probably on the paper that I tore it out of.
MP	It may be there, but that's everything about it though in that little article. That's a complete article.
RS	(Inaudible). No Sir, there's no date on there.
MP	Could you approximate the date of it?
DS	Way before my time. When my father was married, I imagine. 'Cause I don't remember anything about no Pythian Lodge.
MP	That was around when? Late 1800s?
RS	Oh yeah, late 1800s because he was a very young man then during when they organized-where is that article? That would have to be early 1980s.
MP	You mean 1880s.
RS	I mean, I mean, yeah.
MP	Now the person who was the president or leader had that saber.
RS	He was one of the deputies.
MP	He was one of the deputies, and that's why he had this saber, is that right?
RS	Yeah, that saber is part of their uniform. After you get to a certain stage, you request it. They had the saber. Then they had the high plume hat, and the regular uniform.
MP	Do you know anybody who would have one of those uniforms?
RS	No, in fact, this was the first time I knew that Frank organized it. I knew about this-the saber and the Crawford-but I didn't know her father had organized it till this come up.
MP	Are you going to be in town on Saturday?
RS	This Saturday? Yeah, I don't know where else I'd be.
MP	Do you think you could come to that meeting? Did both of you decide you can come?
RS	I can't come. I shouldn't be here today. I got a million things. I got roofers.
MP	I know. Can you come even for a little while because I want that-Mr. Koos from the Illinois Historical Society [sic] is going to be at that meeting, and he's going to be there to photograph all of the things that will be brought. I really would like him to take a photograph of that.
RS	You can take it and let him photograph it. You can take it all, and you can bring it back.
MP	I will sign my life away if you let me do it. (laughs)
RS	Because I won't commit my Saturday because.
MP	I know you are busy. I understand.
RS	we got a lot of personal business to take care of.
MP	If you would let me do that.
RS	Yes, you can take it.
MP	Great. I'll let him photograph it because it would be nice to be able to put that on display with this article. I think that would be great.
RS	You could put a picture of that with this. A copy of this. This uniform got damp down there, and the guys when they cleaned it, they told me they had dried it well, but they didn't.
MP	They didn't. Oh, thank you so much. That's great. Now, did we have anything else on the list?
RS	Let me see. No, that takes care of all the businesses and that little bit on that political area that I'd given you. See we brought up to the present businesses. As I say-well, the Third Ward Club is not too.
MP	is not too active.
RS	It is active, but the class of people that go there.
MP	is different. Un-huh.
RS	Maybe that's the reason nobody give it, you know.
MP	Information about it. That's right.
RS	Because you know it's kind of.
MP	it really has changed. I see.
RS	You'd be surprised. Students slip down there right now.
MP	Oh, do they? (laughs)
RS	Sure.
DS	They always did.
RS	Always did.
MP	You have that-in every town you've got it.
DS	It's an oddity for them, you know.
MP	Something different.
DS	They go down there to see what's going on. And they get in the wrong class of people.
RS	Do you remember. It come in my mind a minute, but it's gone. Do you remember the first social. What did they call it, social.?
DS	I know what you're. Down on South. Ice-cream parlor.
RS	Yeah, the first social center we had-the guy's right on the tip of my tongue that started it.
DS	It wasn't Franklin?
RS	No.
DS	And Mr. Young had that restaurant across the street. Do you remember?
RS	Well, you see, at one time Young was in with your father.
DS	Yeah, but Frank was the main boss. He was just in business with him.
RS	Almost called the name.
MP	Was this a social center or recreation center?
RS	Yes, a social center.
DS	Not a recreation center. They just had. You went down there, and they had ice-cream sodas. No liquor or nothing. No liquor.
MP	Nobody's mentioned that.
RS	No, I can't. Right on the corner. Real nice place. Real nice place. That building's been torn down now.
MP	Where was that located now?
RS	On South Main Street at the entrance as you go over the viaduct.
DS	I can't remember his name either.
MP	Well, maybe it will come to you during our activities today.
RS	The first real nice social center because up on the far corner that's where Klink Stevenson had their restaurant right up on the far corner.
MP	Clint Stevenson?
RS	Klink.
MP	Klink, was that a Black business? You gave me that.
RS	I gave you Klink Stevenson. He had a real nice restaurant on South Main Street. You know that was always.
DS	Mr. Young used to have that. Remember when way before you and I married, you played in the orchestra, and they had the "dime a dance."
RS	That was up on. (laughs)
MP	Oh, did you tell me about your playing with an orchestra? Did you tell me last time?
RS	Yeah, I told you.
MP	Did you?
DS	About playing the drums.
MP	Oh, right?
RS	Mr. Young had a little nightclub up over right down on the square, right on top of. What's there now? Well, where the Shield's Jewelry just moved out, upstairs we had a-your daddy was connected with-him and Mr. Young with that.
MP	He's a good businessman, right?
RS	It was a huge place. And kids-young students-well, students and all. And we had dances up there every week. It was open every night. They had a restaurant up there, too. There would be restaurant (unintelligible) because.
DS	there was no place to go.
MP	Because that was the only place that Blacks could go if they wanted to eat out.
RS	That's right. We had dances up there, and my band played up there a lot for them. That was right up on-everything we had was right up on the square. So that's one good thing. We did have.
DS	Did you tell her about the Elks?
RS	I told her that I organized the Elks, the first Elks Lodge they ever had here.
MP	You told me that last time.
RS	What else do we got here?
MP	Did you tell me the Pythians, is that group still operating?
RS	No.
MP	Since when?
MP	It's a national organization?
RS	National, like the Masons, but I think they was a little bigger than the Masons at that time. It was a very popular lodge. Let's see, is there anything else worth talking about. (shuffles papers) Businesses, businesses, politics. I brought you up-to-date on the few Blacks that we have that is trying to be in business. We've got a Black restaurant. Did anyone give you the Black restaurant up there on Main Street?
MP	Is that a ribs place?
DS	Yeah.
MP	I think they closed.
DS	Oh, did they close?
MP	I was going to mention, any kind of laundry businesses?
DS	Unless they did it in their homes.
MP	No, Black grocery stores at all?
RS	I can remember that little old grocery. That little old man tried to have a grocery store on West Washington Street. Down there where Adolph used to have. In the Smith Building, that old Smith Building. It didn't amount to anything, but he tried to have. No way for me to remember his name. God.
DS	I don't remember that.
RS	You wouldn't. You wasn't.
DS	I wasn't here.
RS	What was his name? I can't remember. He tried to have a little grocery store there at on time. What else? No car dealers or anything like that.
MP	Shoeshine?
RS	Well, let me see, who were the shoeshine parlors around here. The Greeks had all the shoeshine parlors.
MP	Oh, the Greeks? Is that right?
RS	Well, except in the barbershops had a single stand. That's a business, but the Greeks come in here and tied that.
DS	Stokely was a piano player.
RS	Stokely, that was. Yeah, Stokely was one of them.
MP	He was the one who played at the. Yes. Un-huh. Do you know if Black people worked in the coal mines? I understand there was a coal mine over by the railroad.
RS	I never knew, way before my time, but I know there was a coal mine out there. I don't know of any coal miners that ever worked out there. What else can I think of here? You know, that goes back a long time. Three-I League, let me see.
MP	Typical businesses.
RS	(papers are shuffled) Band. Let's see what else is there? Mrs. Rush. I guess that's about.
MP	Any fortune-telling businesses?
RS	Oh, yeah. We used to. I used to. What was her name? Darn it. She's dead now, but she was a good one. Folks-oh Man, they ate it up.
MP	Where was it located?
RS	Out here on East Wal.
DS	Empire.
RS	East Empire. What was her name? Now darn it. (laughs) What was her name? We used to laugh, but she was a good one. You bet she was.
DS	I don't think many Blacks went to her.
RS	No, no, no.
MP	She got the white people's business.
RS	Whites. Made a lot of money too. Did anybody ever talk about-all these businesses I gave were run by men. Now how about women? Miss Emma Smith.
MP	There's one over there.
RS	Yeah, my wife. You had your own beauty parlor. Miss Emma Smith was one of the first Black-had a masseuse in the Roland Building right uptown. She catered to the rich.
MP	What's her name? Now spell her name out would you?
DS	Emma Smith.
RS	Emma Smith.
MP	All right.
RS	And she was in the Roland Building right on the square. Her clientele was the rich, East Side rich.
MP	Do you know how long she operated?
RS	For years. For years.
MP	So really when we are talking about these business, we're talking about the early 1900s pretty much, is that right? Up through.?
RS	Oh, yeah. Way.
DS	After the war.
MP	After World War I, right?
RS	Oh, way after. See we're talking.
MP	All right. All through around the 1960s, right?
RS	No, 1915, [19]16s, [19]18s.
MP	[19]18s. All right. Great. So this massage parlor she had.
RS	Because I can remember hearing about her, and I knew her personally.
DS	My sister worked for her. She gave baths and massages to these wealthy women, you know. And then she had a teashop up there, too. After the massages, she had the teashop.
RS	That would be right after the Depression. You were going back before you said [19]15 and [19]16. That would be. [19]29 was the Depression,
DS	Her business was after the Depression?
RS	Her business was before the Depression, and after.
MP	All right, because that was the period when you had these people-conspicuous consumption. Everybody was anxious to live the good life, who had money, right? All right. All right. That's interesting. So there's a massage parlor.
RS	And it was a fine one. They had all these satin gowns and sheets, and very, very high class. Nobody could afford to go but the rich.
DS	And she had the most beautiful hands I've ever seen. Oh, her hands was just beautiful.
RS	We had another beautician around.
MP	Does she have any relatives around?
RS	They're all dead.
DS	Mrs. Barker on Oakland Avenue was her sister.
RS	They're all.
MP	Mrs. Barker, who lives on Oakland Avenue?
DS	Oh no, she's dead now. She lived on Oakland Avenue. Then she had a brother who we used to call Cheka.
RS	Cheka, he's been dead for a long time. They're all dead.
MP	That's an interesting one.
RS	But the old-timers that's left would remember.
MP	So what about other women's businesses?
RS	We had another beautician. Mrs. Johnson had a beauty shop.
MP	What's her first name?
RS	What's Mrs. Johnson's name? She come here from Chicago. She had been married, but she was a widow or divorced.
DS	Jennie Johnson.
RS	Jennie Johnson.
MP	Jennie Johnson. Now was this beauty shop primarily for Blacks?
DS	Yes.
RS	She had it in her home?
MP	Do you know if any Black women operated beauty shops primarily for whites?
RS	Just primarily for whites, no. The onliest one I know that ever worked on whites was my wife.
DS	I worked downtown in a white beauty shop before I went.
MP	That's right, you told me this.
RS	Now, the only other Black women business. Well, we had-never really amounted to anything. Well, I guess that was practically all. What do call it? Is this thing on?
MP	Do you want me to turn it off?
RS	No, I was just trying to think whether it would be worth-trying to be a real estate dealer.
MP	I was going to ask you if there were any real estate dealers.
RS	Naomi Martin.
MP	Naomi Martin.
RS	She had. She's very ill now.
MP	She's still alive. Somebody is trying to interview her. When did she start her real estate business?
RS	It's not.
MP	Pretty much in her home?
RS	Yeah, that's right.
DS	She had an office in Decatur, remember?
RS	I don't know about that.
DS	That's when I first learned about it because we lived in (unintelligible).
RS	I don't know where the office was.
DS	I don't know where the office was, but the article. It was probably out of a home down in Decatur.
RS	I think it's probably some friend that she knew down there.
MP	But she was selling?
RS	Yeah, she was. Well, she was in the business. I don't know if she sold anything, but she was in the business.
MP	What time was that?
DS	That was right after we built this house because she called me one time and wanted to knew if I wanted to sell it, and I said, "Why would I want to sell it? I just built it."
MP	You built the perfect house you wanted, right? So you'd say the fifties maybe.
RS	Oh, it was in the fifties, sixties. I'd say sixties.
MP	Sixties. All right.
RS	Probably in the sixties because, you know, what's his name tried to be a real estate dealer, too, Leslie Smith.
MP	Yes, he was saying he had started something.
RS	Never.
MP	Never too successful?
RS	No. His father put him in several things, but he could never make anything go. I'm trying to go along with some of the things that sort of you know.
MP	Kind of flourished.
RS	kind of flourished. That worked out pretty good.
MP	Would you say that Black women, that quite a few of them maybe did laundry in their homes. Took in laundry? Did you have any knowledge of that? To what extent that happened?
RS	No.
MP	I know one woman who said she did that.
RS	Mrs. Boykin?
MP	Yes.
RS	She did, since you mentioned it. She's good too. She specialized in curtains and shirts, I think. She was a good one, but she's about the only one I know that really did that kind of work. That was just like everything else. She catered to the East Side, the rich.
MP	She said those were the people who had the money.
RS	Who had those things done.
MP	Any efforts on the part of Black women to start services for baby-sitting businesses.
DS	Not that I know of.
MP	I guess there's not that much demand for it.
RS	I wonder if anybody ever give you any information about Mrs. -the best Black cateress that ever hit this town, Maggie Smith.
MP	No.
RS	That was the-now she was the best. In those days, they didn't have all this fast food.
DS	She catered for the rich when they had special parties. She fixed the food and go out.
MP	And served them, right? Did she hire women to help?
RS	Yes, she hired help.
MP	And where did she operate?
RS	Out of her home. She would do a lot of the work on the job, and then she'd do some of the work at home. But she was the best that ever hit this city, and she catered strictly to the rich, too. They were the only ones who could afford it.
MP	They were the ones who had the money.
RS	Maggie Smith. She hasn't been dead too long. She died after Uncle Ed died. Yeah, she died after Uncle Ed did. But you know, talking about business that was really a business. (Unintelligible) was expensive then.
MP	I wondered if any women tried to organize a business such as you had where they would send women out to do day work and this kind of thing.
RS	No, it wasn't organized then. They tell me that there was a couple that tried it. I don't know whether they succeeded or not. See my business-we took over. My clientele was so that I knew where we were going every day. They made appointments.
MP	And you trained them, is that right?
RS	I trained them, and I was with them. I was responsible. People would go to Europe or they'd go to Arizona or out of state for the winter, and I had the keys. We did everything, did everything-the beds. And when they come back, all they had to do was just walk in. Black women never-they worked as maids, but like they said, "We don't do windows." (laughs) You know, like they used to say. They didn't do none of the heavy work. Most of them would cook and like that for different people.
MP	What about sewing? Did women have any organized way of sewing for people?
RS	No, I don't think.
MP	I'm glad you mentioned women because.
RS	Yeah, I'm trying to think of any women who ever did any sewing? Of course, Hazel could really sew, but she didn't make a practice of it. Who else? Oh, that girl that died. She used to try to be a seamstress. They're both dead now. They died on Gordon's.
DS	Oh yeah, Walker.
RS	The Walker girl. Their family, they're all dead, too. She had.
DS	She did altering and things like that.
RS	She made dresses and all, but I don't know of any.
DS	They didn't make a real business out of it.
MP	A few things they would do in their homes, right?
DS	Yes, they stitched at home because all the stores downtown had alteration women, but there was none of them Black. They was all white. Well, they just didn't apply for the jobs-like it is now. A lot of them.
MP	I see what you're saying, yes.
DS	Elaine was one of the best seamstresses around here. She worked in Chicago for one of the best stores.
MP	Yes, she told me.
DS	Did she tell you? But she doesn't want to do it anymore.
RS	Well, I'll tell you a gal. Well, she's dead, too. They had a Black woman's business. Remember she got burnt. Chavis.
MP	Spell the name.
DS	C-H-A-V-I-S.
RS	And she had a cleaning and tailor-she had a tailor shop on West Washington Street, and it caught on fire. She was severely burned, and she never got over it. She used to go with Girard Covington.
DS	That's way back, too.
MP	Was that the physician or another Covington?
RS	Well, the physician's son. His oldest son. Well, it was a business, a woman's business, and she was. That would be about.
DS	Around [19]34 or [19]35.
RS	Maybe longer than that-later than that.
DS	Well, since we got married.
RS	But see, "Doc" been-I call him Doc. Doc died in [19]50. Mace, my brother, Mace died in [19]50. See, that's only been about thirty years, thirty-five years-for a business it's been.
DS	She's the only one I know.
RS	Well, "Old Man" Nuckolls (laughs) he had a tailor shop, too.
MP	What's that name now?
RS	Nuckolls. Some of them is still living. George.
MP	Spell that name.
DS	Wait. N-U-C-K.
MP	L-E-S. [sic]
DS	Un-huh. Sarah Nuckolls married into that family, you know.
RS	He had a tailor shop there on Washington. He's a good tailor. He had a tailor shop on West Washington.
DS	He was the one who ruined your white.
RS	(laughs) tuxedo. I should never forget him. (laughter) I'll tell you. Man, that goes way. I'll tell you.
DS	There ought to be a couple of those girls. A couple of the girls were nurses out here to the McLean County Nursing Home for years. I think they're still out there.
MP	You know who would have that-Mrs. Posey is getting that all together for me, all the nurses.
RS	She'll have the Nuckolls' girls on there.
DS	Of course, she would know the nurses at the hospitals, but she may not know the nurses at the nursing homes because she worked at Brokaw Hospital.
RS	Because she was just a recorder out there.
End Side A
Side B
MP	We were talking about the McLean County Nursing Home. Do you want to give the name of your aunt who was there?
DS	Cora Osborne
MP	And you are saying she was the first Black person ever in that nursing home. And you were saying they had Mexican-American girls working there, and also the Nuckolls, Black girls, who work there as nurses.
DS	Because Dr. Ed Stevenson is the one who said, "Well, we'll just have to put her in a nursing home."I said, "Oh, no, that's the last resort." And he said, "It's either you or her."
MP	Now, Dr. "Who" Stevenson?
DS	Ed Stevenson.
MP	McLean Stevenson's father?
DS	That's right.
MP	Now, he was your family doctor?
DS	He was our family doctor.
RS	And friend. And very close friend.
MP	Yes. Did you know McLean?
DS	Oh yes.
RS	Did know him? I worked for him.
DS	He taught him how to play the drums.
RS	McLean and his sister when they were little kids the lived on.
DS	on Whites Place.
RS	No, Clinton Street.
DS	Oh, Clinton Street first.
RS	Clinton Boulevard. He was a real nice kid. We'd go there and do work, and he had this set of drums set up in the basement. We'd get down there, and we'd play the drums. Yeah, after Dr. Stevenson. Dr. Ed hasn't been dead very long. I babysat for Dr. Stevenson. He and his wife-after the first Mrs. Stevenson died, he remarried and then he took ill. Hasn't been about four or five years ago, he had this operation, and he had cancer. And he didn't just want to give up, but finally he had to retire. She got to the place-he didn't want to see nobody. She couldn't get away. She'd ask me to come out. He'd say, "Have Roy to come out." I'd go out and sit with him.
MP	You really went out and took care of him as a friend.
RS	As a friend, I would sit with him, and went out there and helped him -all his file he had to keep for a certain number of years. And I rearranged all of his files down in his big basement where they. Where she is now. Because those patient files had to stay for five years. I did all that. I'd go out and sit with him just like a baby-sitter. We were friends. Good friends.
DS	They'd have us out for cocktails for our anniversary and different things.
MP	He was related to. What was his relationship to.
RS	Cousin.
DS	Adlai Stevenson?
RS	Cousin, they were first cousins. And "Old Lady" Ives out here was his aunt, and I worked for her, too, the ambassador. See her husband was an ambassador, "Old Man" Ives, and they'd be out of the country, and I'd take my crew out and have it all ready when she come. She was (laughs) a wrang-dangle to work for. (laughs) I was the only one she could get along with. And when the president come here. When President Johnson come here, my crew went out there and got the house ready because the Ives was still in Europe. They come for Adlai Stevenson's funeral, the president and them. And they was out to the house.
MP	They stayed.
RS	the secret service and family. I was out there.
MP	You were out there?
RS	Yeah, we got the house ready. We got the house ready for them.
DS	And my stepmother catered the dinner-the luncheon what they had for them.
MP	So she personally had contact with Johnson then.
DS	Oh yes. Un-huh.
MP	Do you know if she got an autograph or anything? Or she wouldn't have bothered?
RS	No, I don't think so.
MP	Do you have any photographs of you with the Stevensons?
RS	No. With the.? No. But we were good. We still-when Mac.
DS	when Mac is in town, he'll call.
MP	Isn't that marvelous? I think that's marvelous. I think several people have mentioned Dr. Stevenson. He did have quite a few Blacks as patients, is that right?
RS	Yes, un-huh.
MP	Would you say that he was one of the major white physicians who did.
RS	That's right.
DS	Tell her the story.
RS	He told me that I gave him new incentive to take Blacks. He thought so much of me.
DS	He would take them, and they didn't pay him, and then he stopped for a while. And when he started doctoring Roy why.,
RS	he changed his attitude.
MP	Is that right, because you paid him?
RS	At a certain time, a Black could hardly get a doctor. Bloomington was terribly.
DS	That's why those Black doctors come in here.
MP	What did Blacks do then for physicians? Did they go to Peoria or Decatur or some place?
RS	No, they just took whoever they could get.
MP	Did they just take remedies and do whatever they could do?
RS	Take whoever they could get. The medical profession was bad, bad.
DS	I guess they could always get a doctor, but you didn't know who it would be?
MP	It was difficult?
RS	A good doctor. We had some "quacks" in those days as doctors, too, like everything. A lot of quacks in those days.
DS	'Cause I don't remember ever not taking any doctors in our days.
RS	No, not in our days. I know just like the undertakering business. They had to bury you. They picked one to take, you know.
MP	So that was difficult to get undertakers, also?
RS	Well, sure.
MP	I see.
RS	Well no, you take Murray's-Murray's got all the Blacks.
DS	Well, there used to be a lot of them that wouldn't take it, but there would always be one that would take.
MP	At least one that would take, right?
RS	Beck's is the oldest undertaker here.
DS	Well, my grandfather and all of Grandma Thomas and them belonged to it. They paid.
RS	Burial association.
DS	They paid in a burial association. When you died, the burial was paid for.
MP	Tell me about the burial association.
DS	All I know is that it was like an insurance, and you paid.
MP	Now, who operated it?
RS	The undertaker.
DS	The undertaker. I guess through your doctor as far as I know. I don't know. But I know Grandma, Grandma (Unintelligible) had it because-that's my father's mother in Pontiac had it because when she died-she got killed in an automobile accident-and the undertaker's name was (Unintelligible) in Pontiac. [He] said that he couldn't bury her under the circumstances because she didn't have enough money paid in for her burial. But I talked to an undertaker here in Bloomington, and he said, "Oh yes, she's got to be." No matter how she died, her burial has been paid for you know. And when I confronted him with that, I said, "Well, if you don't bury her, I'll take her to someone else." And he took her and did a beautiful job.
MP	That's interesting-the burial association. That's right.
DS	But I wouldn't have known how to do it except Dan Carmody who just died here a couple of weeks ago [his obituary was printed on September 21, 1986], he told me, "Well if he doesn't want to take her, we'll go up and get her. If she has paid into that burial association, it's up to him to bury her, no matter how she died or when."
MP	I see.
RS	But he tried to tell me-see, when she was torn out of the car, the car mashed her head, and he had to build up all that. He did a beautiful job doing it, but it's just knowing the right people.
MP	Knowing the right person to go to.
RS	Otherwise, he could have just buried her and not even shown her.
MP	That's right. Absolutely.
RS	She was mashed pretty severely from the automobile accident. She was killed instantly from the automobile accident.
MP	I'm glad you told me about the Stevensons because I would have missed that.
DS	His second wife is nice, too.
RS	Yes she is, very nice.
DS	She's had us out there several times. And I've gone to lunch with her and some other white ladies.
RS	I'd be out there taking care of her now if I was able.
MP	If you were able to, yes.
RS	We was just.
MP	really close friends, yes.
DS	Everything Roy would have. A sweater or something he'd wear he'd say, "I'd like to have that sweater you got." He had all the money. He could buy sweaters.
MP	It was almost like a brother, right? It was such a personal relationship.
RS	Last plane trip he took, I persuaded him. I said, "Why don't you go?" He knew he was very sick then. I'd take them to the train. I'd meet them when they'd come back.
DS	I had several letters-thank-you letters from him. I don't know what I did with them.
RS	I used to keep that stuff, but a lot of that stuff got lost downstairs. [water damage in the basement] Then after he passed, I stayed out there. I was retired, but I'd go out and do a little cleaning for her.
DS	When he died. We'd gone to the hospital to see him a couple of times. And when he died, we didn't go to the house for the wake, you know. They called up. Mrs. Rust called up, and said, "Mrs. Stevenson, Reny [Lorene] Stevenson was upset because Roy and I hadn't been out.
MP	Is that right?
DS	When I called to make excuses-we had company, and I wanted to remember him as I had last seen him, you know. And Mac answered the telephone, and I told him who I was. And he said, "We've been looking for you. Reny's been wondering why you haven't been by." So the funeral was the next day, and I said, "We will be at the funeral." Of course, they had a private room for the family, you know. But after the funeral was over, we was standing. My sister and I was standing on the corner for Roy to go get the car. And Sam Stern had stopped me and was talking to me, and Mac honked the horn and waved to us to let us know that he had seen us at the funeral.
MP	And was delighted that you had come.
RS	Of course, I went up to see Doc Stevenson all the time when he was in Brokaw when E. K. was in the hospital. I see E. K. and then I'd go up there and spend time with him before. He released him-he made them release him, and then he come home. He wouldn't take chemotherapy anymore. So he come home. And as I say, he was.
DS	He was a wonderful person.
RS	Yes. I got all the records and rearranged everything for him. He knew he was going to die.
MP	And he wanted somebody to do this who he could trust. He said, Reny." He called her Reny. "You can depend on Roy."
DS	His first wife was nice, too.
RS	I was nice to her. Yeah, his first wife, too. I was just as close to her. Oh, she was.
DS	a beautiful woman.
RS	a beautiful woman. It was class. You talk about class. Man, she had class, class, class, class. She laid sick for quite a while. And I was the same by her. And then when he got ready to marry, (inaudible).
MP	Oh, he asked your opinion of her, right? (laughter)
RS	I told him I thought it would be a grand thing. I told him, "You might as well get married. You can't stay on the job if you keep flying to California every two or three weeks."
DS	He was wondering how his friends would feel about him getting married.
RS	He was a wonderful man, a nice person.
MP	Well, I better start on your activities, and you can start wherever you like? Give Mr. Shavers a little breather. (some movement and muffled conversation)
DS	Well, I told you that I didn't have any civic duties, but I had forgotten that I has worked on the ration board.
MP	Tell me about that. How you got on there and how long you worked there and what you did.
DS	Well, the office of it was at the courthouse.
MP	And we are talking about the War Ration Board.
DS	The War Ration Board. Mr.-I can't call his name. It will come to me in a minute. It was called the war service for the Office of Price Administration. At that time sugar and coffee and different things was rationed. When they would come-they was supposed to go to people's houses and find out how much coffee you had stored and how much sugar you had stored. And if you had over a certain amount, then you couldn't get stamps to get more. Of course, everyone told little white lies that they didn't have any. The rich people and all had to declare what they had and even the farmers. They schooled us to tell the farmers that they could use saccharine and people who canned a lot, you know-when they couldn't buy sugar. Of course, gasoline stamps was rationed. I've always said how the government-each morning you was given a certain amount of books, and you would tear off so many that was allotted to different people who didn't have sugar or didn't have coffee or gasoline. If there was any books left in that stamp, you had to destroy them which I always thought was so stupid that you'd give extra stamps to people, but you couldn't. Mr. Walters, Mr. [George] Carruthers, and Dana Rollins was the board chairman in that. Mr. Bowles was the administrator. I had a certificate that said: "Delores Shavers, in sincere appreciation for devotion to our country's need in time of great national peril for volunteer serv