McLean County Museum of History

Keep the Heritage Alive!

Claude Hursey

Transcription of Oral History - Continued


MP	Now, we'll talk about when you came to Bloomington then with your mother, did you enroll in school here?

CH	Yes, in Edwards School.

MP	Now, that's the one up here on Market Street?

CH	Yeah.

MP	Now, did Black and white students attend that school?

CH	Sure did.

MP	What did your mother do when she first came? What kind of work did she do?

CH	She didn't do any kind.

MP	And she immediately started a business here?

CH	No, she never had any business. I worked after school, and my brother George he worked on the railroad.

MP	What did you do after school?

CH	Shined shoes. We called it the "Greek" Shoe Shine place, but it was the United Shoe Shine Parlor.

MP	Why did you call it Greek?

CH	Well, the Greeks own and ran it.

MP	And your brother worked on the railroad?

CH	He worked for the Chicago and Alton Railroad.

MP	What did he do?

CH	He worked on what they call the scrap dock. That's where they sort out all the scrap iron.

MP	Did you know about the coal mines here at all? Tell me what you remember.

CH	Sure. I just remember when they ran right down at the end of this street right across, right along the tracks.

MP	Were they many Blacks who worked there?

CH	There was, I say, maybe there was possibly seven or eight Black miners. There was probably three or four Colored teamsters that drove wagons and stuff.

MP	I see. And when did that coal mine stop operating?

CH	I don't remember.

MP	Let's carry on with your life. You went to Edwards School and did you finish? How far did you go?

CH	To about the eight grade. That's as far as they went in that in grade school.

MP	Then you went to high school? Did you go to high school?

CH	No, I didn't.

MP	And then when you quit school, you took a job as a shoe shine boy? When you left school?

CH	Yeah. Well, I shined shoes while I was going to school. I'd shine after I got out of school and then on Saturday and Sunday mornings.

MP	Do you remember how much you were paid?

CH	Yeah, about four dollars a week.

MP	So the company paid you there-the store where you worked paid you?

CH	Yeah.

MP	And then after you left Edwards School, would you tell me what happened then?

CH	Well, when I left Edwards School, my mother signed up for me to go to work down at the railroad down at the baggage room. I was assistant baggage man down there. I was only about sixteen years old then, but she had to sign up for me to go to work. And I went to work down there. And I worked there from 1921 to 1945. I got hurt over there in [19]41 and I had to have an operation on my back, and they didn't want to give me any kind of decent job or anything, just that old heavy work. So I stayed there until 1945, and then I quit.

MP	And then what did you do?

CH	I went to work uptown.

MP	What did you do uptown?

CH	Well, I went to work in a gambling joint.

MP	All right. Because they did have quite a few of those here in Bloomington. I wanted to ask you, you didn't serve in the military, did you?

CH	No, I enlisted-I mean, I was called and everything, but I had an essential job baggage room handling the mail and stuff, and that's why I got exempted.

MP	Do you remember if any members of your family served in World War I or World War II?

CH	No, I think, I don't remember. I used to hear my brother, John, say he was drafted, but I don't know whether he even served. I don't think he ever served.

MP	Now, tell me how you got going in your business.

CH	Well, as I say, I worked uptown a while, and where I'm at now the Third Ward Club down there was a Colored fellow owned that club and everything.

MP	What was his name?

CH	William Johnson.

MP	Did he have a nickname?

CH	"Dime" Johnson. We called him "One Dime."

MP	He started the business then?

CH	No, the fellow that started the club, his name was Revy Rhoades. He started that, and Johnson worked for him for a while, I guess, and then Johnson got it.

MP	Why was this man called Revy Rhoades? Was that his name?

CH	Well, his name was Revelation. And they just called him Revy.

MP	How did the place come to be called the Third Ward Club?

CH	There was somebody that thought that was in the third ward, but they found out later that the location wasn't in the third ward. That's how it got the name the Third Ward Club. Nobody ever changed it.

?	And also before it became Third Ward, there were other names. You know, before Third Ward. When I first come here, they said something about the Pink Lady. Was it called the Pink Lady?

CH	The place-they called it a lot of different names, you know-Bucket of Blood and a lot of different names, but it was always named the Third Ward. That's the original name.

MP	Where did this Revelation Rhoades come from?

CH	Bloomington, this is his home.

MP	Oh, he was born and grew up in Bloomington?

CH	Yeah. His mom and dad and everything lived right here.

MP	Someone told me that he was involved in politics in some way. Would you speak about that?

CH	He was a politician. He had a brother Simon that was a politician, too. He lived in Chicago. Simon did. He was right up there in the politicians.

MP	Do you know what position he had? Did he have an elected position?

CH	He had some kind of a state job.

MP	And was Mr. Rhoades involved in politics in Bloomington?

CH	Yeah.

MP	In what way was he involved?

CH	Well, you know, he didn't hold any office or anything, but he was kind of the Colored chairman of the Democratic organization. He was sort of well thought of around.

MP	Was the Democratic Party very active then?

CH	Well, it wasn't too active. I guess they were just trying to get it going, but he was with them.

MP	Tell me now about the Third Ward Club. How did you happen to take it over?

CH	I went to work for the fellow there, and there was another buddy of mine that we went to school together, Harry Woods. He was already working there. So we worked for Johnson and he got sick and he told us before that, if he was living another year, he was going to let us the place then. He didn't make it another year. He passed. So then we ran it for his wife. He passed in 1946. We ran it for his wife until 1949. And then she had some relatives come down, and they had a lot of different ideas. They were trying and get the place. So we just went on and got it ourselves. We bought it. Harry and myself and another boy, Frank Bright. Frank Bright had some juke boxes and stuff, we just decided we three would just take it and run it.

MP	Tell me, did Black and white people go there? Was it kind of a restaurant and also a tavern?

CH	It was a restaurant at one time. It was two different people had a restaurant there in the same building, but that was before they got the club license. But they didn't allow the Coloreds and the whites mix together.

MP	Oh, is that right? At the club?

CH	No, they didn't allow them to mix together.

MP	So it was only Colored who went to that?

CH	Strictly Colored. I can remember when Mr. Johnson ran it-I won't call his name-told him if he ever caught any white in there, he'd close him up. Because the mayor, he had all the power over the license and everything else. And they couldn't possibly have any white people being served in here. "Then I'll take your license."

MP	Is that right? Did you do a pretty good business there, you and your friend?

CH	Yeah, because that was the only place the Negro had to go to. Well, they had another one there on the West Side, and it was a small place.

MP	What was it called, Mr. Hursey?

CH	Royal Palm's Social Club.

MP	Who was in charge of that one?

CH	Al Nathan owned it.

MP	Somebody said that they thought there was a club above [Lucca's] Grill.

CH	It was a restaurant there when I was a kid. A man named Bill Tinsley ran that. But you see that was when the country was dry. There wasn't no booze or nothing. The only booze you got was bootleg whiskey.

MP	So there was a tavern above the Lucca's Grill.


CH	Yeah.

MP	What was it called?

CH	The Elite Club.

MP	And who owned that one?

CH	Don't anyone own those clubs. They're membership deals. It's just like the Third Ward Club. I own the building, but I don't own the club. The members own the club. That's the way it goes.

MP	Who determines who can be members?

CH	We have a regular board and everything.

MP	Explain that to me.

CH	Well, you have a secretary. You have a president, secretary, treasurer and you have the others, you know.

MP	And only the members can come?

CH	Well, each of the members can bring a guest in. But a lot of times, they aren't run according to rules and regulations.

MP	How often were the board meetings? Who elected the board? How did the board get started?

CH	Well, I can't tell you how it started because that club was founded in 1924. It's the second oldest one in Bloomington.

?	So I guess it was just a format under which it was ran. It was just continued.

MP	And then when he took over the club, did the people just continue. So it's somewhat like what you call a country club, right?

CH	Well, it's a membership deal.

MP	Is it still membership?

CH	Yeah.

MP	Who is the president?

CH	Me.

MP	How long have you been president?

CH	Ever since about 19-Harry he died in. Ever since 1957.

MP	Who was Harry now?

CH	Harry Woods he was president. He was one of the other partners.

MP	Now, can white people be members?

CH	Oh, sure.

MP	How long have white people attended? Been involved with the club?

CH	Ever since they've been allowed to come in.

MP	When was that?

CH	That's right after that big disturbance down South when Kennedy and them.

MP	Yes. The Civil Rights activity, I see. Would you tell me about what you know about other Black businesses that existed here in the early 1900's?

CH	Well, I don't know of any that amount to anything. The onliest thing I know of is that club I told you about. There was another club over on Center Street that the Watson brothers run that-Doll and Bill Watson.

MP	Spell the last name.

CH	W-A-T-S-O-N. That was back in prohibition days when there wasn't no booze or nothing. You know what went on.

MP	Yes. All over the country. That's right.

CH	Then there was another Colored man. He was a preacher, Reverend Wells. He started a little store. I guess A. J. Henderson and Robert Nathan set him up in a little store business out on West Washington Street. Right there where Adolph's was. Only Adolph's was on that side, and he had the little store on this side in that same building.

MP	That was a little grocery store.

CH	He didn't stay too long, Reverend Wells didn't. Of course, there was several cleaning and pressing and shoeshine parlors owned by Coloreds.

MP	Would you give me the names of the cleaning shops?

CH	Well, George Nuckolls, he run a cleaning and pressing shop on West Washington Street. There was a Boone Meaderds. He ran a cleaning and pressing shop on Main and Washington Streets in the basement right underneath Walgreen's Store. Mr. Harris on Center Street ran a barbershop and a little second-hand store there. And there was Fred Rush. He had a second-hand store down on South Center Street for years. And his wife had a restaurant over on South East Street-Mrs. Rush. There was one other fellow. What was his name now? Of course, it's been a long time ago, but Mrs. Deanie Hunter ran a restaurant down on South Main right up from where the club's at now.

MP	Deanie Hunter. That was a woman that ran that restaurant?

CH	Yeah. Her brother, Clink [Clarence] Stevenson, ran a cleaning and pressing parlor right across the street from the restaurant.

MP	Now, the cleaning places, did Blacks and whites use those cleaning shops?

CH	You mean patronize them? Yes.

MP	Speak about the businesses in Normal.

CH	Nothing. I don't know too much about Normal.

MP	Let's talk about barbershops you knew about in Bloomington.

CH	There was a barbershop right down on North Center Street, right down underneath where the club was upstairs. Archie Wallace had a barbershop there for quite a while. And then there was down on South Main Street, next door to where the club is now is a fellow named Harris. He had a barbershop in there-three chairs. Catty-corner across the street from the club, there was a guy named Bob Levi. He had a barbershop in there. There was a fellow right up the street from where Mrs. Hunter had the restaurant His name was (inaudible), I think. So that was several Colored barbershops. Strictly colored. Whites could go in them.

MP	Did whites go into the barbershops?

CH	Yeah. But Colored couldn't go into a white shop.

?	The barbers had shoe shining-shoe shine stands.

CH	You could go in and get your shoes shined.

MP	Tell me about-at the clubs did you have music? Entertainment?

CH	We had music. We had live entertainment for quite a while-orchestras and bands and stuff.

MP	Where did you get them?

CH	They come from different places.

MP	Did you get any bands that became famous?

CH	No, we didn't get those high-class ones. They were small-three or four pieces.

MP	And you had singers? Dancers?

CH	No, we never had any dancers.

MP	What about beauty parlors? Were there women who had beauty shops?

CH	Not that I remember. I guess there might have been, but I don't remember any. The women used go house to house and do each other's hair.

MP	When all of these Black businesses were flourishing, was there any kind of an organization where all the Black people who owned businesses got together to talk about their problems and this kind of thing?

CH	Not that I know of.

MP	Also, tell me how did Black people get the money to get themselves established in businesses?

CH	There was a few Black people around that had a little something. Mr. [Aquilla] Smith over there on Olive Street he had several janitorial places, jobs.

MP	Oh, he had businesses.

CH	Businesses that he'd take care of, and he bought a few pieces of property and stuff like that, you know. Mostly all they got was what they worked for. There was Colored people in the housecleaning business-Mr. [Frank] Pegues, Mr. Bailey, several of them in the housecleaning business. Back in those days they'd clean house for the white people. You didn't have all that stuff like you got now, these white people cleaning house. Just like chauffeuring and everything else back in those days that was all Colored. All your hotel work was Colored, all your bell-hops, and all your maids. Nowadays they are all white. But back in those days there was no white. The Colored did all that kind of work. Out on the East Side they had Colored yardmen, Colored housemen, all like that. The white man does it all now.

MP	Do you know if there were women who did and took in laundry?

CH	No.

MP	Did your mother ever work outside the home?

CH	No.

MP	Now, tell me when you first came here your sister was here, right? You all lived with her?

CH	No, when we first came here, we roomed right down on Morris Avenue. 206 North Morris Avenue. A lady named Mrs. [Emma] McNeil-we roomed there with her. My mother, myself and my other brother. After we left there, she moved right over here on Howard Street. Mrs. McNeil had to move out of the house down there. So she moved over here, and then after she got settled in the house, we moved back over there with her. And we stayed awhile, and she left town. So we moved right up the street and stayed with Mrs. Deanie Hunter, the lady I told you used to run the restaurant. My sister, she was living in that little house at 911. And her and her husband left and went to Champaign, and we moved into the little house and stayed there. I've stayed in this neighborhood all my live.

MP	Has this neighborhood always been integrated?

CH	I should say not. It was only-course I own all three of these houses now. I didn't own anything back then. But the little house and the next house they was owned by some people, [unintelligible] and his wife. And they had I think about eight places over on the other side of the tracks. And they rented them all to Negroes and these two. That's how the Negroes got in this neighborhood. There was another two places right down the street that [unintelligible] White, a real estate guy-I guess he had the whites, and they wouldn't pay enough and so he started renting them to Negroes. So at the end though he finally put the Negroes out and put the whites in. In other words there's only two Negro families in the whole neighborhood, that's Nathans and us.

MP	Oh, is that right? The others were whites then?

CH	I tell you, I look now-you could go up this street to town, you'd go Jefferson Street to town and you wouldn't see a Negro. Now, boy everywhere you look you see them.

MP	What was the relationship like with your family and whites in the neighborhood.

CH	Well, we got along. We all went to school together and everything. We'd go to each other's houses and eat and play.

MP	What nationality were most of the whites in the community?

CH	A lot of Irishmen.

MP	Irish primarily. German?

CH	Yeah. Quite a few Germans, too. But all of the "Polocks" and the Hungarians, and everything, they stayed west of town on what they called the Forty Acres. Yeah, that old coal mine down there we used to go up on the dump you know. They'd have an old car that takes the slate up and dumps it you know, and there used to be coal mixed in with the slate, and we would go up there and pick it and sell it for ten cents a (unintelligible).

MP	So you always been kind of a businessman. Do you think you got this from your father, this knack for business?

CH	I don't know that I always wanted to be a businessman.

MP	What was it like in the Great Depression?

CH	I didn't pay too much attention to it. That was [19]29. I was working on the railroad. I got cut off for about three years. I got cut off the regular job, and I had to work extra (inaudible). Of course, back in those days when I started working, I was only getting twenty-five cents an hour working ten hours days for two dollars and fifty cents a day. Seven days a week. Every two weeks we drew thirty-five dollars.

MP	How many hours did you work a week?

CH	Well, we worked ten hours a day. Seven days a week for thirty-five dollars.

MP	That was rough work, wasn't it?

CH	Yeah, you had to pull those old mail trucks, and handle that mail, trunks, milk and bags, everything.

MP	Your other brothers and sisters, did they remain here in Bloomington?

CH	No. One brother Aubrey, he didn't come with us. He came later on, but he came here, and he stayed here. He had a janitor's job at this Livingston Building on Center for years, and then he left the Livingston Building and went over to the Griesheim Building and retired from there. My three brothers and two sisters, they always lived in Champaign. Only this one sister here, when she moved from here, she moved to Champaign. None of my other brothers and sisters lived here. There was just the four of us that lived here to amount to anything. That was Aubrey-he was a preacher. That was Aubrey, George, John, and myself.

MP	One was a preacher? What was his name? Where did he preach?

CH	Aubrey Hursey. What was the name of the church?

?	Christ Temple. It's a Pentecostal Church. I think it should be noted he was one of the most outstanding Black ministers in the community. Very well known and loved by both white and Black people.

CH	Yeah.

MP	How long was he a minister there?

CH	Quite a while.

?	When I came here in [19]70, he was minister then. So I know some time before then.

CH	He left the [African] Methodist Church and went over there.

MP	What church did your family attend?

CH	Methodist.

MP	Always Methodist. And your mother, when did she pass away?

CH	1930.

MP	How old was she?

CH	Sixty-nine years old.

MP	Were you ever involved in politics in anyway?

CH	Yeah, I used to be vice-chairman of the Colored Republican Club years ago.

MP	Tell me about the Colored Republican Club. When was it organized?

CH	It was organized when I came here. It was a nice outfit. Napoleon Calimese was the president. I was the vice-president.

MP	What year were you the vice-president?

CH	That must have been about [19]60.

MP	Had you been active in the club before then?

CH	No.

MP	But you think it had been organized for a number of years.

CH	Yes.

MP	It was an old organization. Does it still exist?

CH	Yeah, I don't know how many people are in it. Pretty near everyone who was in it has passed on. It still exists, but you don't hear too much about it. At election time you used to hear quite a bit, but now you don't hear too much about it.

MP	What kind of activities did the club engage in? Were you concerned about only national elections or local elections?

CH	Mostly local elections.

MP	Were you successful? Did you put in any Blacks up for office?

CH	(initially misunderstands question) No. I don't think any Blacks run for anything.

MP	But you worked for other people, to put other people in office? Were you pretty successful would you say?

CH	Yeah, but didn't any Colored run for any office.

MP	Were the majority of the Black people in the community who were active in politics Republican?

CH	There used to be quite a few of them. You'd very seldom see a Colored Democrat, you know.

MP	How did you happen to become involved with the Republican Party?

CH	Well, when you are in business, if you want to stay in business, you have to stay involved. Maybe you don't want to. That's how I got involved.

MP	Did they have the Masons organization?

CH	Now this fellow I'm telling you about, Mr. Calimese who was president of the Colored Republican Club when I was vice-president, he was head of the Masonics. They had a pretty nice group, but after he passed and everything I don't know-they got Masonics going now, but they got two or three different outfits. And they ain't very strict now, they'll take anybody in. Used to be you had to be pretty strict to get in the Masonics.

MP	When you came here, you came here with the children and your mother? What kind of responsibilities did you have to assume in the house?

CH	I was just thirteen.

MP	Do you remember what tasks you had?

CH	I didn't have any tasks. I had to get in coal and kindling and stuff for the fires and stuff like that and do some chores. Shovel coal and stuff like that.

MP	And your sisters what did they have to do?

CH	Well my sister's way older than I am.

MP	Are you the youngest?

CH	I'm the youngest. I'll be eighty-three.

MP	That's amazing. Did you ever go to Greece at all ever?

CH	No, my dad wanted to take me over there when he took my other brother, but my mother said "no."

MP	Did your brother ever talk to you about what it was like?

CH	Oh yeah, he liked it our there. My dad and his sisters owned a pig farm and an olive farm over there. He went over to settle the estate and everything. He had a stroke and died. He never did get back. My brother stayed over four years. Him and I talked several times. He said he liked them over there and everything-he liked his aunts and all. But he said-them people over there he just didn't like those people. He learned how to speak Greek. He used to go down to the docks every day and watch those boats and everything, and one day he just decided he was going to slip on one.

MP	And that's how he got back. He was living with his relatives there?

CH	He was living with his aunts and stuff. I guess they never did settle the estate after my dad had his stroke. The ship he was on never found him until they was out two days. They just let him go.

MP	It was 1918 when you came here? Oh, that was just after the World War I, wasn't it?

CH	Well, I was here when the Armistice was signed. I never will forget that. Well, I remember everybody up town was throwing paper out the windows and was raising sand. That was November 11, 1918. We came here in August, I think. They just tore the town up, drinking and everything. I was shining shoes up there after school. No, I wasn't. I'm thinking about another case. I was selling papers. We'd buy them for two cents and sell them for three cents.

MP	You've always been a businessman.

CH	We'd go down the street yelling. We'd go get five and sell them.

MP	So you made good money on that because they were announcing the end of the war.

CH	Yeah. People was buying them. A lot would just buy them, and they'd give you three cents, a nickel, or dime and just buy them and throw them up in the air.

End Side A

Side B

CH	I know several left from here. I didn't know them when they left from here, but I knew them when they come back. The was one named Arschell Barker. There was "Black Jack," but his name was Roy Knowles, Linc[oln] Bynum, Ed Bynum, Charlie Thomas, Lincoln Clark, Donald Clark, Joe [unintelligible]. Oh, there's more, but I can't remember. Dick Dalton. I wasn't here when they left, but I was here when.

MP	when they came back. That's nice that you told about the excitement. I want to ask a little about the house you lived in when you first came. You roomed with this lady. Now, did you use the outhouses then?

CH	Oh, sure.

MP	And how long, when did they get rid of the outhouses in this community to your knowledge?

CH	Oh, I would say they got rid of them in the fifties, I guess.

MP	And did you have electricity?

CH	No. When we lived in the little house there, we never had it. We had a pump. We had two pumps. We had a soft water pump that was the one run off the house we used to wash with, and we had a sink that's the one to drink and cook with. That's hard water. Then, we had gas. But no electricity. The toilet sit out back.

MP	Were there any people in your family, to your knowledge, who were musicians?

CH	My brother George was a drummer.

MP	That's George Hursey? In this community?

CH	Yes. He played around here some.

MP	He played at the clubs?

CH	Yeah. He was with several small orchestras around here, too

MP	What was the name of some of the orchestras?

CH	They was just get-togethers.

MP	Oh, I see. That was one musician, any others?

CH	No.

MP	Any artists?

CH	Not that I know of.

MP	Any writers?

CH	No.

MP	So you think we have pretty much covered the businesses, right?

CH	Yeah. I don't know of anymore. All I know is the one grocery store as I said, Mr. Wells. Of course, there were those cleaning and pressing shops, you know.

MP	When Black people died in the early days, would any morticians in this community take them? Which morticians would take them?

CH	No, they wouldn't. Beck's Undertaking they wouldn't take no Negroes. They had a burial association when old man Beck was living, If some Negro belonged to that burial association, then they'd take them. Otherwise, they wouldn't take them. Several of the undertakers wouldn't take them, but back a long time ago, Murray and Stamper would take them. Well, they had two Colored undertaker parlors here. Mr. Holmes had an undertaking parlor on West MacArthur over there, and Rowley had an undertaking parlor on South Gridley Street. I had forgotten about that.

MP	What about physicians?

CH	Oh, yeah. There was one. This [Bloomington] was his home-his family and everything, Dr. Covington. He had a boy named-we called him Doc all the time. He was a policeman. And he had another boy named Gene. There was another Colored doctor came here named Dr. Hatcher. Right after Dr. Covington died, there was a Colored doctor came from Chicago named Dr. [Milton] Glascoe. Then we had a Colored dentist, Dr. Thompson. That's all the doctors.

MP	Do you know this person who invented the "Oil of Gladness"? I forgot his name.

CH	"Old Man" Scroggins.

MP	Yes, that's the name. Did you know him personally?

CH	Sure. A tall, lanky man. Lived on the corner of Western Avenue and Mill Street over there on the southwest corner. Mr. Scroggins, he used to go around and do housecleaning. He invented that furniture polish called the Oil of Gladness.

MP	That's what I wondered. It was a furniture polish, is that right?

CH	Yeah.

MP	Did he do pretty well with that business?

CH	Well, somebody tried to get him to get a patent on it, but he didn't, and I think somebody messed him out of it. They claimed it was some white fellow got it away from him or something and got a patent on it. And there was Mr. Pegues. P-E-G-U-E-S. He was in the housecleaning business, and they made their own wall paper cleaner. They tried to get him to get a patent on it too, but he never would. I remember Mr. Scroggins. They called him Oil of Gladness.

MP	Did he operate this business out of his home? He manufactured in his home?

CH	I guess he did. That's the only place I ever remember him to be-the old house on the corner of Mill and Western Avenue.

MP	Is the house still there now?

CH	Yes, a two-story house. Kind of distinguished looking sitting on the southwest corner of Western Avenue and Mill Street.

MP	Tell me, Mr. Hursey, about what kind of entertainment other than clubs did Black people involve themselves in? Could they participate in recreational activities pretty much?

CH	They didn't have too much of that going. They visited a few of the parks and stuff like that. Still they had certain places in the park to swim and stuff like that. You couldn't go where the white people did. Miller Park out there you had a small place you could go. They even had at the TB Sanitarium-years ago they had a building off the main Sanitarium. When a Colored person went to that, they put them back in that building. If you had to go for treatments, they put you back there.

MP	They couldn't go in the main building.

CH	If you had to go stay for treatments, they put you back there. But they eventually got rid of that. They all go to the same place now. It used to be kind of bad around there. You couldn't go in the restaurant and sit down and eat. You could go in and pick it up and take it out to eat it, you know. You could go to school with them and stuff like that.

MP	You couldn't sit in a restaurant with them.

CH	No. That's the reason I say they should never forget Kennedy and Martin Luther King. Negroes should never forget 'em.

?	Uncle Claude, how was the law enforcement here?

CH	You know we had no Colored policemen.

?	How did they treat Blacks though?

CH	We never had much trouble out them. Of course, I could tell you a lot of things, but she's got that tape on.

MP	It's all right to say it. We want that history, whatever. Just don't call the names of people.

CH	If you was all right with them, you got along all right.

MP	Yes, I understand. There's politics everywhere, right?

?	Could you expound a little bit on the red-light district?

MP	Did you know Richard Pryor's aunt whom I understand...

CH	Maxine. Sure. I knew Maxine. I knew her mother, (inaudible). I knew the whole family of them.

MP	Were they born in Bloomington?

CH	No. Some of them were born in Missouri, I think.

MP	But most of them lived in Bloomington?

CH	Yeah. Well, no. The only one that lived in Bloomington was Maxine. Well, Louise, Maxine's mother, used to live here years ago in and out. It's just like anything else. You have a sporting class of people, and you have a non-sporting class. That red-light district it ran there for years and everything.

MP	Now, I want you to tell me what you remember, did your mother ever use any home remedies on you when you had medical problems or illness?

CH	Not that I know. I think I remember one time I had the mumps, and she put some kind of hog (unintelligible) on my jaws or something. I don't know what it was. Make you wear that asafetida around your neck or something. Some piece of thread or something they'd tie around your neck with tea or something. I don't know what that was for.

MP	Now the food you ate when you were a young boy, did she ever make Greek food for you?

CH	No, she never did know anything about that Greek food. All she done was cook that old fashioned grub.

MP	Southern style cooking.

CH	Yes.

MP	Was your mother born in Mississippi?

CH	I think so.

MP	Was there ever a newspaper owned by Blacks in this town?

CH	Revy Rhoades had a little paper here at one time, but I can't remember the name of it. That's the only one I can ever remember. I don't think it lasted very long. At that time there was only two newspapers in town. That was the Daily Pantagraph and the Bulletin. (tape is shut off)

MP	Say it.

CH	Ike Sanders had a business at 1101 West Washington.

MP	Do you remember him?

CH	Sure I do. He had a restaurant there. He had a pool table in the back, and we used to go over there and shoot pool on the table.

MP	Now she told me that once this entertainer... (tape is shut off)

MP	At the turn of the century, there was a great deal of hostility in the South against Black people, and I just wondered how your mother, who was a Negro woman, and your father, who was a white person, managed to live together in that community.

CH	Well, they didn't bother them. They got along all right because the old man stood up for him. There was one time two white brothers who run a livery stable whose name was Whiteside. One of my brothers and one of the Whiteside boys got in a fight. And my brother beat him up. "Old Man" Whiteside, this kid's dad, told some other white fellow, "I'm going down to that 'damn' George's store, and I'm going to tell him I want a dozen lemons, and when he stoops down." Of course, the old man had done had trouble with him before. "When he stoops down to put the lemons in the sack, then I'm going to shoot him. I'm going to kill him." So this other guy went and told my dad. (inaudible) So he came down and said, "Hi, George. How is everything? I want a dozen lemons."My old man said, "Okay." My other brother said the old man just reached over and got a sack and gave the man a sack with a gun on him, and said, "Here's the sack, you son of a bitch. Now you get your own lemons and pay for them and get on out of here." (laughter) He made him put his own lemons in the sack and made him pay for them and made him get out of the store. The other white man had said when my old man would stoop over he was going to kill him, see. He told him. My old man was waiting for him. (a couple of unintelligible sentences)

?	Dr. Pratt when he tells that, it would make me think that his father was an extraordinary man. That's maybe because he was a businessman. You know, the more common Negro at that time they would have lynched him.

MP	That's why I thought it was unusual.

CH	They used to treat him all right. I don't remember too much. It's what my brother told me. He was a mean old rascal. One day he went down to New Orleans and killed a fellow down there. He had quite a bit of money, I guess. He left there and went to New Orleans and killed a guy. I guess it cost him pretty near everything he had to get out of it. That's when he come back, and he wanted to take me to Greece. My mother said, "He ain't going nowhere." So he took my brother Andrew with him. Went back to settle up the estate and died.

MP	How old was he when he died?

CH	He was along about Mama's age. He was about sixty-nine or seventy.

MP	Do you remember him at all?

CH	Sure.

MP	What he looked like and how he looked? How was he to you boys? Was he a kind of "buddy Papa"?

CH	Yeah, he was all right. He never whipped us or nothing, but if you'd do something you knew you had no business doing, he'd grab you, and he'd take his fist and roll it over your head. (laughter)

MP	You never learned any Greek at all from him? Did he ever speak Greek? Use any Greek words?

CH	Not that I know of. I wouldn't have known it anyway.

MP	Did he ever tell you stories about what life is like as a little boy?

CH	My dad? No. I guess he told Andrew and them a whole lot of stories. I was the youngest. I'd remember we'd get out of school, and we'd go to the store. Go there and eat and everything.

MP	You owned your own house there?

CH	He owned two or three homes there. He well taken care of us.

?	You were talking about artifacts. (conversation continues about artifacts and future interviews)

End Side B

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