McLean County Museum of History

Keep the Heritage Alive!

Robert Gaston

Transcription of Oral History Tape 1- Continued


MP	Where was you first shop?

RG	My first shop was at 300 South Center Street, on the corner of Center and Grove.

MP	Did you have any difficulty purchasing the property there or renting?

RG	I didn't. No, I didn't have any problem there. Finally urban renewal came down and tore that building down, and I moved uptown on the square, right next to Osco. I was in there for, oh, four or five years until they tore the building down and put a new building there. So then I moved to Normal. I had a couple of different locations in Normal, and now I am back here in Bloomington again. And that's a span of twenty some years.

?	We haven't heard much about your early childhood years and your parents. Were they originally people of Bloomington?

RG	No, we came here from Clinton, Illinois. That's how I happen to know...

MP	You and your parents?

RG	Yes, we came from Clinton here. My parents wasn't original Illinois people. They were from down south. From Mississippi. They all came from Mississippi, but I was raised and born here.

MP	Do you know why they came to Clinton?

RG	Yes. The reason my parents came to Clinton was because that's where my two aunts live. I had two aunts, and one had married a man that worked on the railroad. He worked on the section. You know how men used to go around back in those days? Maybe you don't know. And they would put in rails, the new rails. They built railroad lines, and they traveled on the railroad all of the time, and there was a big train. So he was part of this gang and so was my aunt. My aunt was a cook, and he was a supervisor of labor out there or something. You know, a supervisor for the railway. And they both worked for the railroad. And they ended up in Clinton because they built a great big center there, a rail center in Clinton, Illinois. The IC. [Illinois Central Railroad]

MP	What year was that?

RG	Well, that was back in the thirties. Back in 1931, [19]32, something like that, but I had been there before, see. I had lived there, and we would go back and forth down south and come back and go back and forth until finally they convinced us that we should leave the South and come up here with my mother's two sisters. My uncles had all moved up here by that time and so had my grandfather- my grandmother, I never did know her. She passed on before I knew her, but my grandfather I knew him. And my whole family moved up here so finally we left the South and came up here. My family did. That was back in the thirties.

MP	And you were a young boy then I suppose, right?

RG	Yes.

MP	And then I assume that you went to school in Clinton. You started school in Clinton?

RG	Yes.

MP	Now, were the schools integrated in Clinton then?

RG	They always have been integrated as long as I can remember.

MP	And what about in Bloomington? Do you know the situation?

RG	Same here. They always been integrated.

MP	Do you remember anything that your parents or grandparents told you anything about their experiences? It would have been your grandparents probably.

RG	You mean my grandfather?

MP	Yes, about their experiences after slavery or their parents after slavery? Or did they remember anything like that?

RG	Frankly speaking-I hate to say this but my grandfather had no problems with the white race because he was white. My grandfather was a white man, and he lived with us.

MP	In Mississippi?

RG	In Mississippi and in Illinois, too. And we didn't have any problems in Mississippi or Illinois because he was a buffer between us and them.

MP	And what was his life like then for you family in Mississippi? Was your family pretty much accepted in this integrated way?

RG	Well, we didn't (unclear) because we lived in the big city. We lived in Jackson so we didn't have to come in contact with any white people at all.

MP	So, where you lived it was pretty much Black people there?

RG	Right. Black businesses. Black everything. We didn't come in contact with any white people down south because we were living in the city.

MP	What about when you came to Bloomington? Where did your family find housing?

RG	Well, I had aunts living here. (laughter) That's what happens. They moved here and Clinton. One of the ones that had lived in Clinton moved here so we had family in both places. So it wasn't no problem. Back in those days they all got them big houses with fifteen or twenty rooms, you know. They had big houses then. No small houses. All the family lived together, everybody. I can remember my grandfather-that's why I said about the Black family, now it's deteriorating because my grandfather, my great aunts, my uncles, all my aunts all lived in the same house. The whole family lived there. I can remember these things.

MP	Now, what side of Bloomington did you live on?

RG	The southeast side. (unclear-background noise)

MP	Do you have any knowledge of the extent to which Black people may have had difficulty purchasing properties where they wanted to purchase them?

RG	No. At that time everybody that I knew in Bloomington owned their own home-Black. At that time pretty near all the people either was buying or owned their own home. Urban renewal cleaned all the Black people out of their property here in this town because there was people here that owned a lot of property right downtown, good property that I know of. Urban renewal was (unclear).

MP	Do you know anything about a community center that was run by Blacks in downtown Bloomington.

?	It was across the street from your house, wasn't it?

RG	Yes.

MP	Could you tell me what you remember about that?

MP	How did the center come about?

RG	Through the efforts of a man by the name of Mr.Tripp, Willie Tripp.

?	And we don't have him down for an interview.

RG	I think you should go by and see his son. His son could probably bring you up on a lot of Black history.

?	Which son?

RG	The one that lives on Oakland Ave.

?	You're talking about Willie Tripp, Jr.

RG	Yes, Willie Tripp, Jr. Go by and see him because Willie Tripp's father was brought here by white folks, and they lived up there in that building on Grove Street for years-next to Beck's Funeral Home, that apartment building. They lived there for years. I remember them as kids.

MP	The Tripp family?

RG	Yes. they lived there for years. Mr. Tripp was a very good man. You know he was a good man. He could get most anything he wanted. The white people just loved him because he was a kind of Black man that white folks love. You understand what I mean?

MP	Yeah.

[text omitted]

MP	You said the white people went down and brought this-they came up with a white family? The Tripp family came up with whites?

?	That was real common back then for them to go south and bring back Black people because Adlai Stevenson, from what I hear, they brought people back from North Carolina that were their servants. They brought them back. That was a real common thing for whites to come south and then bring them back. And I'm trying to remember-they died the (unclear) that worked for the Stevensons.

MP	Who did? The Tripp family?

?	No. It's another family I'm thinking of.

RG	There was a whole lot of people bought here from the South by white folks.

MP	So the white people went down south to get people to come back and work for them.

RG	There was a whole lot of people that was brought here from the South by white folks.

MP	So the white people went down south to get Black people to come back and work for them?


RG	Yes, and then, too, a lot of people that live here in this town owned plantations in the south. Like Mrs. Ives, Adlai Stevenson's sister,-they got a big plantation down there now, and everybody that worked for her come off her plantation.

?	And that's Stevenson's sister-because I worked for them, and they had people down from North Carolina. They had a chauffeur and a maid and a cook.

RG	All the people that ever worked for them come from down there. Even now. There was a guy in my shop last year from down North Carolina that was driving for Mrs. Ives.

MP	So when they bought them up then, did they live with this white family?

RG	Yes, of course. They were in the house with them or in the garage in back of the house.

?	Usually in the garage or in back of the house is where they had their quarters.

MP	Tell me, there's a building by this McBarnes building. There's a big structure there, a big building, and then there is a kind of house in the back. Is that the house they lived in-the Tripp family?

RG	No, no. That's where the chamber of commerce is housed and that used to be the legion building there. The building that I am talking about is east of Beck's Funeral Home. There's an apartment complex.

?	There are still a few structures around town that have that kind of setup. You can see it when you go by there where you can tell that there were kind of separate quarters from the rest of the main house.

MP	That's what I was interested in. We started by-you were telling us about this center. You said that Mr. Tripp started it.

RG	Mr. Tripp and a club called the Regular Fellows which I happened to be a member of at that time. They got this center together with some white folks downtown. They just-you know, white folks being real nice to them. They wanted a place where all of the little Black children could go. They did not want to be bothered with them downtown. So naturally they contributed funds so that we could have a place down there. I think we were also in the United Fund chest-the Community Chest. They drew funds out of there to finance that community center.

MP	What was the name of it?

RG	Twin City Community Center.

?	Would you imagine that Mr. Tripp would have pictures? Because I haven't seen any pictures of that.

RG	Now he might have pictures of that center. Willie Tripp might have-either he or his sister.

MP	Now, how long did that center operate? Do you remember from what time to what time?

RG	Well, I would say-my kids grew up over there, practically, let's see-so I would say it was there for ten or fifteen years, at least. And even before it was there it was somewhere else. I mean it was downtown at one time, and they tore the building down. So they moved it to this big house, a great big old mansion. That's what they did. They converted this big old house into the community center for the Blacks. And I tell you who owned that house. Have you heard of this Scott fund that they have here? He is the guy that owned that big house.

MP	Somebody mentioned that there was some building, a mansion-like structure, that was a community center for Blacks.

RG	He owned that house at one time, and I think it was contributed out of his holdings for us. He left it there for some purpose so they just gave it to us as a community center at that time.

MP	Where was this located?

RG	Right where the city hall is in Bloomington.

?	I am sure City Hall would probably have some pictures of that place before they tore that down to put the current city hall there.

RG	I'm sure they have. Either they have or the Pantagraph.

?	Jewel told me-she had said something about her experiences with the Pantagraph. She asked them if they have anything on Black history, and their reply was not very good. She got very angry because she figured that they did. They must have had a lot, you know, being a paper. They probably had stuff that you wouldn't think of. It was news. It would be newsworthy, and even if they didn't want to put it out on the front page, they probably put it back. They said that they didn't have anything.

RG	They know everything that has ever happened in this town that was Black. They know, for instance, that there was a Black man at one time-he was real goosey. Do you know what you mean by goosey? You know people would stick that thing up like that.

MP	Oh, to tickle.

RG	Yes. There was a man who used to work at City Hall-I mean down at the county jail at the courthouse, a Black man. And he was goosey, and a lot of white kids knew it. They would go by there and "goose" him, you know. So one day, a bunch of kids went by there and was playing with this Black man, and they got to goosing him, and he ran out of the courthouse, and they were right behind him chasing him. The white people wondered why they was chasing him, and nobody told them, so they all started chasing him. So pretty soon he was running down Center Street from the courthouse and somebody said, "Stop him!" Somebody said, "Stop that '[n-----]' down there!" And they kept on, and when they got down on this corner down here, they hung him. They hung him right down there on the corner, and nobody knew why they hung him until it was all over, and somebody wanted to know what he did. Nobody had ever told them that he hadn't done anything.

?	Do you know his name?

RG	I don't remember his name. All I did was I heard this story from the old people.

MP	Do you know of any more instances in which Black people were hanged in this area?

RG	No. I didn't even know about that until somebody told me. They told me about that. They said that the man hadn't done anything. He just happened to be running, and you know white people got to chasing him, and they saw some other white people chasing him...

?	He worked at the courthouse, you say?

RG	Yes, he shined shoes in there. They got to chasing him and by the time they ended up down there, they had hung him down on the corner before anybody asked why were you chasing the guy. They just knew that he had did something to the white folks. I guess, just assumed it. This is a very racist town now. These people will do it to you real quick. I know they have did it to me a lot of times. But then, too, I found out that it's also a good town. If you just mind you own business and roll with the punches, you can get by in this town, too, you know.

MP	You talked about your experiences at the various factories trying to get better opportunities for Black people. What about other kinds of situations for Blacks-like restaurants, businesses, and housing? Could you speak about that?

RG	They was segregated up to just a few years ago. I can tell you that back in the fifties and sixties out there where you are working now you couldn't eat in a restaurant out there anywhere. You could get a sack and get a sandwich in a sack and walk down the street with it. But you couldn't eat out there anywhere. You know I had my shop right out there back of the-you know where it was.

MP	NCHS [Normal Community High School], yes.

RG	And I used to drive through there, and I would see kids out there eating-Black kids and white kids. I used to tell them when they came over to my shop that they take a lot of things for granted now. Kids don't really realize that a lot of Black people had to fight and some of them had to die so you could be out there doing this. And I said that you kids don't even realize it, and that's the honest to God truth.

MP	What about Black businesses? Was it difficult for Blacks to build up business in this area, say in the forties and fifties? Did they have difficulty buying property and establishing businesses?

RG	I don't think so. Back in the forties and fifties Blacks owned a lot of property in this town, and they had businesses here. In fact, I can tell you...

MP	Could you speak about some of the businesses?

RG	Back when I was a young fellow, when I wanted to go out on Friday and Saturday night, I had my choice of three or four Black places downtown I could go to. That was downtown. Now, they won't let you open up anything downtown. They are worse now than they were then. Right around the corner where this Italian restaurant is on the corner here-what's the name of it?

MP	Lucia's?

RG	What's the name of that Italian restaurant right around the corner?

?	Lucca's

RG	Lucca's Grill. That used to be a Black place. Yeah, when I was a young man, it was Black around there.

MP	Do you know what the name of the person who owned it?

RG	Yes, Bill Tinsley. Bill Tinsley had a nightclub over it, and right around the corner here was a Black restaurant-a lady by the name of Mrs. Lillie Bacon. There was a big Black restaurant right around the corner directly where I'm standing on the next street over.

?	That's Bate's mother, right?

RG	No, it wasn't. That was Bate's aunt.

?	Bate's aunt.

RG	A lady by the name of Mrs. Nathan, who was Eloise's mother. You know Eloise? She had a nigh club called the Blue Moon right over there on Center Street. And then she had a teenage place for kids, also. On the West Side there was another place out there, and the Third Ward [Club] had always been there, of course. But you had a choice of where you wanted to go that night. Now, you don't miss anything in town because you only have one place to go if you ever don't want to hang around white folks. (laughter)

MP	What about any carpenters?

RG	Carpenters? (pause and no audible answer)

MP	Stores that Black people may have owned?

RG	Stores? I can't think of any stores, only that little bitty operation that Reverend Jones had. Do you remember Reverend Jones, Deacon Jones? Something like that. My son was a plumber here, and they put an ad in the paper for a plumber out at ISU. He was also a member of the plumbers' union, and the plumbers' union sent him out to ISU for a job. And they wouldn't even give him the application and that was just here four years ago. Even though the union sent him out there, they wouldn't give him an application. So I got on my horn, and I called [name omitted] over there.

End Side A

Side B

RG	Who's the other guy out there? The head guy over there.

MP	Wine?

RG	Wine, yes. He got on those two people, and they hand delivered the application over there to our home in the evening. They stuck it in my mailbox, I guess, after he talked to them. Or either he might have brought it himself. Maybe (unclear) had him bring it because I believe (unclear) was [name omitted]'s boss. Anyway, my son passed the civil service examination. He made a ninety-six or seven-something like that. There was three men, and he was one of the three, and they chose a white man that lived out of town. Lived in some other county. They gave him the job. So we went around and around on that. I went over there, and I had it out with (unclear) and [name omitted] and all of them. And you know I asked them, "Why in all these years-let's see, you have been sending me letters for twenty years and asking me to find people for you to employ." And I said, "At last I found you one person that was a professional or a skilled person." And I said, " You turn him down." I said, "You have been telling me all this time that you are an equal opportunity employer, yet you turn my son down, which really teed me off." I said, "I have five sons in service of the country, and I myself was a soldier." I said, "I don't know what Black people have to do to get into the mainstream out here. This institution has been here for 125 years, and to my knowledge you have never had an electrician, carpenter, plumber or any skilled person out here. Only one that I can recall"-which they only had one, and that was Art Garrison, a friend of mine. "And he only worked here because of an emergency that you had out here. You had an emergency thing going on out here, and you needed all the help you could get. So he happened to be a plumber so you gave him a job, but he didn't stay here very long." Which now Art is the head plumbing inspector in Detroit, the city of Detroit. So anyway, he gave me all kinds of reasons why he didn't hire my son. So finally we waited around for a couple of more years and a plumber died out there. So my son talked to him again about it, and he hired somebody else.

MP	Is that right?

RG	ISU-that's who I am talking about. I think, [name omitted] he could have put in a word, and I think he could have gotten my son out there.

MP	Yes.

RG	All he probably had to say was, "Hey, look, give the guy a chance."

MP	Mm-huh. Mm-huh.

RG	You know. He's supposed to be [job title omitted], and you know that. I'm sure that's all he had to say, but he didn't do that.

MP	Mm-huh. I understand. I have heard many people say that there was a time when Black people were not permitted to live in the dormitories.

RG	No, they didn't.

MP	That they had to find housing in different places. Would you speak about that? I understand there was a special house.

?	The Bright House. Jewel said to ask about the Bright House.

RG	They had four houses out there and they were all Black. They had one for males and three or four for females. They could not live on campus. They could not go to the prom. They had a special prom for Blacks. Everything was separate on campus. That's a fact of life. Everything. They're still as racist now as they ever was. Don't you ever think that they changed. They haven't.

MP	I am going to ask you something. I think you hear a great deal about Black barbers in Bloomington-Normal, and I had the impression that there were quite a few Black barbers in earlier years in Bloomington-Normal, and some of them worked as personal barbers for important people. Could you speak about that?

RG	Well, yes. The one barber that I know of that I got my license from-that sponsored me. You know you had to have a sponsor at one time. He was a barber that lived in Normal. His name was Calimese. And he had his barbershop in Normal, and he could only cut white people's hair. He didn't allow Blacks in there. In fact, they told him he could open up a shop out there, but he could not cut any Black folks' hair. Strictly cut white folks hair.

?	Where was this shop at?

RG	Where Will's Barber Shop is right now. On the corner of-you know where? Let me see. Let me tell you. You know where the railroad track is? You know as you go across the railroad track going east-you know there's a barbershop right to your left. Do you recall?

MP	Is it by the service station there?

RG	No, no, no.

?	Across from Watterson Towers?

RG	No. When you are leaving from downtown Normal on-what's that, North Street?

?	It's next to the place that's for sale now.

RG	Right. It's right across the street from-what's the name of that place?

?	Rocky's.

RG	Rocky's. Right. There's a barbershop. Now this is where this Black man's barbershop was for years.

MP	What was it called?

RG	Calimese. His name was-that's the owner's name, Calimese. I don't know what the name of the barbershop was. But anyway, he had a barbershop there, and he couldn't even cut his own brother's hair. He couldn't cut nobody's hair in there.

MP	They wouldn't permit any Black in there?

RG	No, he couldn't cut Black hair. If he wanted to stay in Normal, he could not cut Black folks' hair. And he stayed there for years, and he didn't cut any Black folks' hair either.

MP	He was the one who signed for you to become a barber?

RG	Yes, I was an apprentice under him. You had to have an apprenticeship. You had to have someone to sponsor you before you get your license. He was retired at the time, but what he did is he hung his license in my shop, and I could work under his license. And he said that he worked there part-time, which he didn't. He was retired.

MP	He was the one who signed for you to become a barber? Were there other barbers around, Black barbers?

RG	Yes, there were barbers uptown. There was two barbershops in Bloomington at that time. But right now, unfortunately, we are the only Black barbershop in town. In Bloomington or Normal. But I am sure there will be some more come. The town will be growing like mad in the next four or five years.

MP	Oh, you think so?

RG	I am sure it will be. That car plant is coming here, and that's going to mean a lot of people moving to the community.

MP	Were there any other things that we left out?

?	Did you ask him about community involvement?

MP	That's right. Mr. Gaston, are you involved in a lot of community activities? Or politics?

RG	Not any more.

MP	Would you talk about your past involvement?

RG	I used to be involved in a lot of politics. In fact, one time I was-the highest rank that I have ever held in a political organization was vice president of the McLean County Black Democrats.

MP	When was this?

RG	That was back in the forties.

?	You guys had to brave in an all-Republican community.

RG	Well, I mean that's what I say-the biggest mistake that I ever made in my life was not being a Republican. Living in this community I could have been rich if I had been. But I always bucked the system somehow or another. I was just plain dumb.

MP	Were you always a Democrat?

RG	All my life.

RG	My family was Democrat. I tell you, the first time I ever voted I voted for Franklin Delano Roosevelt. And he was the most liberal man that we'd ever had at that time that I have ever knew of a white man, I thought. So everybody voted for Roosevelt, and I started out voting for Roosevelt. And I never changed my politics in all of those years. That's what it was.

MP	Did you help form this Black Democratic [organization] ?

RG	Yes, me and along with Lawrence Irvin. You know Lawrence Irvin. And a man by the name of Jim (unclear) James (unclear). They were all white, of course. We were working for Adlai Stevenson at that time, and he became governor of the state. And we were all supposed to get jobs down in Springfield because we were hard workers, and we never got anything. Once he got in that was the end of it.

MP	How long did this group function?

RG	We functioned for I would say for-they functioned for ten or twelve years, but I was only in it until I didn't get a job. I quit. I told them to go "jam it." They didn't give me a job. I told them to jam it. I said, "Hey, you guys didn't take care of me, the heck with it." I have always remained a Democrat, but I never fooled around with any political organization after that-after they let me down. And then when they did offer jobs to anyone around in this community, they were only janitor jobs down in the capitol building or something like that. But we had a lot of people with educations around here, and they were people with Masters degrees and Bachelors and so forth. I had a friend of mine. He is probably the state's attorney in East St. Louis right now-I mean in St. Louis. And he was a shoe shine boy at the "Y," and he had a Masters degree. I had a couple of other boys that was working with me out at the Bloomington Country Club. I was bartender out there, and they was waiters and most of them had gone to college out here, and that was the best job you could get at that time. We had a lot of degree people that was shoveling coal, unloading coal out of these cars around here. It was tough in those days, and that hasn't been too long ago 'cause you can look at me and see that I not that old. (laughter)

MP	Any civic organization you were involved in?

RG	Yes. I was in my shop one day and Craig Hart-he is the president of Champion Federal-he come over to my shop, arrogantly got up on my shoeshine stand and threw his shoes up and wanted a shoe shine. I happened to be the only one here so I shined his shoes. He never came in for a hair cut, but he thought he was doing me a favor by coming to get his shoes shined which was all right with me because that meant I made another dollar that day. So I shined his shoes. And in the meantime, we got to talking, and he was sitting there telling me how liberal he was and what a nice guy he was and all that, and how he had helped a lot of Black people. I said, "Oh yeah." He said, "Well, we've never turned a Black person down for a loan at Champion Federal." I said, "Is that right?" I said, "Well, I will tell you what." I says, "Two years ago"-you know when I lived at William Drive in Normal? "Two years ago," I says, "Urban renewal bought some property that I had over in Bloomington, and I said I am moving to Normal. And I came to your place to get my house financed in Normal. And I had $20,000 in cash to pay down on the house, and they turned me down." He argued with me for two hours that I was wrong. He say, "You didn't come there." So I told him that I did. So he finally got up out of the chair and went back to his place of business, and he didn't never come back to my place again for a long time. Well, he never did come in there again. One day, I was sitting in the barbershop and the phone rang. I am getting back to-you said civic organizations that I had belong to-the phone rang and I picked up the phone and said, "Hello." "Is this Gaston's barbershop?" I said, "Yes." He said, "Could I speak to Mr. Gaston, Bob Gaston?" I said, "This is he speaking." So he said, "Bob, this is Craig Hart down at Bloomington Federal." I said, "Yes, what can I do for you?" He said, "Well, I will tell you what. I just submitted your name to the chamber of commerce on the board of directors. We want you on the board of directors down there." And you know what that was, don't you? That was an admission that he was wrong, but he never did tell me that he was wrong. He never did tell me. He never did acknowledge that fact that he was wrong about what he had said. But I knew that's what that was. That was my pay off. He said, "Would you be interested?" I said, "Yes." So that was one of the organizations that I belonged to for about four years.

MP	Is that right? Now that was quite unusual, wasn't it?

RG	Yes, it was for me because I never know any other Black person to be on the chamber of commerce in Bloomington. I know I learned a lot by going.

MP	What year was that now?

RG	That was-what years was that?

?	That would have been back in the seventies. About [19]75, [19]76..

RG	Yes. I was on that for four years, and I used to get to go the country club where I formerly worked, and no Black man had ever sat in there and ate dinner. I used to go out there once a year every year. The chamber of commerce had a dinner out there, and they couldn't turn me down because I was a member. And I would be there every year, believe me. I'd be there every year. And I would take Jewel with me. I guess she told you, didn't she?

?	Yes.

RG	And there was something else I wanted to tell you about.

?	While you are thinking about that I want to be sure that we include the Pantagraph article which was probably back in the sixties about you and all of your sons belonging to the Army. There's a tradition of serving in the armed forces. What is it-seven of you?

RG	No. It was my five sons and myself, six. I've been pounding that into their heads for years. I say, "Hey, what does a Black person have to do to get a job in this town." I say, "I've had twelve children, and five or six of them have degrees from some college. Some of them have been in service. Some of them are skilled people, and this and that and the other. They got professions. And yet," I say, " all of them had to leave Bloomington to get a job." Can you imagine that? Out of all of those children that I have that not one is working in this town. They all had to leave here and go somewhere else to get a job. And I have some of them that can do just about anything. I guess it goes back to what the Bible says nobody likes you in your hometown. Nobody thought Jesus could build a house in the town he came from, right?

?	That's kind of unusual since he was a carpenter? (laughs) When did you get married?

RG	1940. In Bloomington.

?	Was she from Bloomington too?

RG	Yes, born and raised in Bloomington.

?	Does she have any relatives here now?

RG	No, they're all dead.

MP	We still want to talk about any civic organizations you belonged to? I wanted to ask you about an organization that I've heard a little about, and that is a chauffeurs' club? Do you know anything about that?

RG	They probably had one here at one time. I am sure they did because they used to have a lot of Black chauffeurs here. Pretty near anybody on the East Side that was anybody had a Black chauffeur-at one time, sure. If you didn't have a Black chauffeur and a houseman, you wasn't nobody on the East Side. So, I guess, they all had one at one time.

?	Can you remember any names of the men that were chauffeurs that would have belonged to this chauffeurs' club? Is there anybody around now?

RG	Yes. Let's see. What's her name- Kathryn Dean was married to a guy by the name of Virgil Dean that was a chauffeur for years and years and years for white folks. That's all he ever did, in fact.

?	Did you interview her?

MP	Yes I did. But I don't think I remembered to ask her about this.

RG	Yes, she was married to a guy. That's all he ever did was be a chauffeur for rich white folks.

MP	Anything else?

?	Is there anybody that you know of that can tell us about the old red-light district? I am sure there was someone that lived up in there.

RG	Pretty near every Black person in town lived near the red-light district. That's where they have them at, you know. They don't have none in the white community.

?	I am talking about someone that was closer to the operation.

RG	I was close to it. I used to live right next door to a sporting house. In fact, at one time MacArthur Street east of Main Street-they had two blocks of houses that housed white prostitutes.

MP	Were they separate? Were there houses of prostitution for Blacks and whites separated or...?

RG	Yes. They didn't have any Black women or men in the white houses. But on the next street over Elm Street was where the Black houses were.

MP	Do you know any of the prominent operators? Any of the madams?

RG	I knew one. She was the greatest of all. Her name was Della Burns. She was a beautiful white woman. She was a madam.

MP	When did that whole red-light district go out of business?

RG	I would say around...

?	[19]65?

RG	Somewhere in the sixties. Wait a minute.

?	It was there when I came in [19]62.

RG	So okay, so there. I was going to say the fifties, but maybe you're right.

MP	Now I want to ask you can you give me the names of Black people in Bloomington who you considered to be very prominent Black people? Of course, Mr. Gaston. Any others, and I am thinking of the thirties, forties, and fifties. Black people-professionals, entertainers, or.

RG	The thirties, forties, fifties-prominent people? Well, professional people-we used to have a doctor. We had three doctors here at one time. We had a dentist and two medical doctors staying right here. I can't-for the life of me I can't.

?	I heard about Doc Covington.

RG	Covington and Doctor-there was another doctor. He was here during the days of the Depression. He was a welfare doctor. I can't think of his name right now.

MP	What do you mean by welfare doctor?

RG	He took care of people on welfare.

MP	And the county paid him to do that?

RG	Yes.

?	Which reminds me-did we also have women who worked on the WPA and got houses here? I am thinking of one now that's on the corner of Mills Street. Do you know of anybody that would have worked on the WPA project? Mama White.

RG	Her husband worked on the WPA for years. He was a supervisor out there for years and years and years. He worked for it. He worked for WPA. He was one of the big shots.

MP	What was his name now?

RG	A Black man-his name was White. And we used to have a Black man here that dug the hole for State Farm up here for the foundation. His name was Contractor Brown.

MP	So he was a contractor?

RG	Yes, he was a Black man. He dug the hole that they put State Farm in uptown. Men with picks and shovels. That was the days before they had all of the good equipment that they have now. Just get a bunch of men and give them a bunch of shovels and picks and tell them to go out and dig a hole. They dug a hole for that place up there.

MP	There is a person, I understand, who developed something called Oil of Gladness. Would you know something about that person?

RG	Oil of Gladness. No, I don't know anything about that. Back in those days everybody survived playing policy, playing the numbers.

MP	Oh, is that right? During the Depression?

RG	Numbers and prostitution. That was it, I guess. All those big shots that you see in Bloomington now, old-timers in the churches and all-they all used to be in those houses. (laughter)

MP	A booming business, right?

RG	There weren't nothing else to do. Right. I know them all. They don't want to see me coming. Of course, I would never embarrass them. The only thing is that they know that I know.

MP	Who operated the numbers business?

RG	A guy by the name of Claude Hursey. He's still living. He's a Black man. He runs the Third Ward Club.

MP	Now the Third Ward Club-is that frequented by Blacks primarily or any whites...?

RG	Blacks. It's a Black club-a political club. It is a Republican political organization. That's why it has been able to survive for so long because they are Republican. This is a Republican town, and the guy that owns it is rich. He's a millionaire.

MP	Is that right?

RG	A Black guy. That's why I said if I had been smart enough when I was young I would have said that I was Republican, and I would have been rich. But no, I was one of those hardheaded, agitating, activist '[n-----]s" out here in the street woofin' about "the white folks ain't this and that." And I could have been "Tomming" and dancing like all of the rest of them. I wouldn't have to be standing here cutting hair today.

MP	Well, you've done well for yourself. You are the only Black barber around for a while now.

RG	Well, I'm out of business now. I'm just here because my son wanted to be here. So...

MP	Well, I think that's about it. It would be nice if we could have a copy of your-do you have a certificate or some kind of membership card for the chamber of commerce?

RG	No, I don't know. It's probably packed in a box some place. When we moved, we packed a lot of stuff up, and I've never even looked at a lot of it.

MP	That would be nice to have.

RG	I used to have it hanging on the wall, but now I don't know what happened to it. It is probably around here somewhere in boxes or something.

MP	Well, thank you very much. If there are any other names now? He gave us quite a few names.

?	Yes, he gave us quite a few names.

RG	Don't forget to go by and talk with [Willie] Tripp. He can probably put you hip to a lot of stuff. He might even have pictures.

MP	All right, great.

?	And he gave us the name of the man that he thinks owned the land for the park.

RG	Ike Huggins. There used to be a man here by the name of Rebel [Revelation] Rhoades. He was one of the most famous Black men that ever grew up around this town. You probably heard of Rebel Rhoades.

MP	No, no one has mentioned him. Would you tell us about him?

RG	It is a famous name. It was a Black man that used to be in the Senate from Mississippi called Rebel Rhoades, and this guy was named after him. He was one of the most famous people in this town. He was an artist. He was a dancer. He was an entertainer, comedian.

?	Did he ever perform at the house, the place where Bloomington Federal is now? Wasn't there a-what was the name of it? I can't think of it.

RG	Majestic.

?	Majestic Theater.

RG	Yes, he performed there. He performed all over the country in fact.

MP	Does he have any relatives here? Do you know?

RG	No. They are all dead and gone. All them people was old men when I was a kid. They're gone now.

MP	So he was a dancer and a...

RG	entertainer, artist. There was a white man in here the other day with some of his drawings.

MP	Is that right?

RG	That's right. He brought them down to show them to me, and what he did at that time he put all the signs on all these buildings around here. He was a great artist. He was a little Black man. I remember him.

MP	Well, who is this man who has his paintings?

RG	Some white guy that just stops in to talk to me every once in a while. He brought them in one day to show them to me. He wanted me to know that he knew a Black man. (laughter) You know how white folks are.

MP	You know, Mr. Gaston, it would be really nice if you could get the man's name because one of the things that we are doing...

RG	You mean the guy that's got the pictures.

?	The guy who's got the pictures, right.

RG	Well, all I know is that they call him Red. I can find out who he is. He is an old guy, a real old guy. He must be about eighty years old. He stops in to see me every once in a while. He wanted me to know since I was Black and I was down here on Main Street.

?	Let's see if we can make an appeal to his humanitarian-to make this a humanitarian gesture to donate to our cause.

RG	He just wanted us Black folks to know that he knew a Black man. He come by here and told me this was one of his best friends. He wanted me to know that. (loud laughter) He looked in here and saw me cutting hair in here one day, and he looked and stood out there for five minutes and he looked. Then he come to the door and he looked in, and he finally come in, and he said, "We sure are getting a lot of you Colored people downtown." I wondered where everybody else was. Where are they? Is anybody else down here? (laughter)

End of side B

Additional Information:

Gaston
Home Page

MCMH Home