McLean County Museum of History

Keep the Heritage Alive!

Conversation with Anna Clark, Henry Brown & Luther Watson

Narrators: Anna Clark, Henry Brown, and Luther Watson
Interviewer: Mildred Pratt
Date: 1985

Side A

MP	Ms. Clark would you tell us something about yourself. Let's see your name is Anna Clark, right? And you're approximately ninety-three years old.

AC	My name is Anna Clark, and I'm ninety-three years in January.

MP	Great!

AC	I've lived in Bloomington since 1916.

MP	You came here in 1916. Tell us the circumstances under which you came to Bloomington. Where did you live before you came to Bloomington? What city did you live in before you

AC	I worked out in a private family. I got off the train and went right to my job.

MP	That's pretty simple. How did that happen? Somebody told you about the job?

AC	A friend of mine. She had worked for this woman. She was going back home. Her husband lived in the country, and he wanted her to come back home to help him in the spring. So

MP	What was this family's name?

AC	A. M. Kitchell. He run an ice-cream place.

MP	In what part of the community did they live?

AC	They lived on East Washington. Same block that the High School was on.

MP	Before you came to Bloomington where were you living?

AC	In the country down twenty miles out of Cairo.

MP	How old were you at that time when you came to Bloomington?

AC	Twenty-four.

MP	You were kind of on your own then? You were living with your family in the Cairo area?

AC	I lived with my sister and her family.

MP	So you struck out to Bloomington. And what kind of work did you do?

AC	I lived with the family, and I did washing, ironing, cooking, everything, cleaning.

MP	Did you take care of the children?

AC	They didn't have any children. They were elderly people.

MP	How much did you earn?

AC	Five dollars a week. I think she started me out at four dollars.

MP	You got a raise then. (laughs)

AC	I stayed there for a year.

MP	And then what did you do?

AC	I worked out for another family on East Washington.

MP	What was that family's name?

AC	(Unintelligible)

MP	What did this family do for a living?

AC	They was retired farmers, and they had four children. They were all good-sized kids.

?	Did you enjoy that type of work, or was it just a job you had to get?

AC	You'll have to talk a little louder.

?	Okay, did you enjoy that type of work?

AC	Yes, I did. I didn't enjoy waiting on the table. I didn't mind cooking, but I never did enjoy waiting on the table.

MP	Did you feel embarrassed by having to wait on someone?

AC	No, I don't know how I felt. I just felt like I shouldn't be doing that.

MP	It was below your dignity, beneath your dignity to have to do that.

AC	I guess it was. I could do it, but I didn't enjoy it. I never did.

MP	Now, how did they treat you, these people that you worked for in their homes?

AC	Nice.

MP	What did they call you?

AC	They called me Anna.

MP	Did you like being called by your first name or would you have preferred...?

AC	I didn't mind. It didn't matter.

MP	Did you live in a room in the house?

AC	Yeah, I had a room.

MP	You had a room?

AC	Second floor on the same floor that they were on. Nice room.

MP	Now, would you tell us a little bit about when you first came here were there a lot of women, Black women, working in service?

AC	There was about eight women that I knew working out, and we were all friends. So we had Thursday afternoon off. Had Thursday and Sunday afternoon-all the help-girl help. So we'd all get together.

MP	You'd get together and talk about the people you worked for?

AC	Un-huh. (laughter)

MP	Now, Ms. Clark, you told me once that there were some white families who had Black people work for them who were not very kind to them. Is that right? The David Davis's? Could you tell us something about the David Davis? Whatever you remember.

AC	I don't know too about David Davis. I just know they said they were hard to work for.

?	This particular family, the Davis family?

AC	I don't think David Davis really ever had any Colored help, but his brother and his wife did. They were very nice to their help. Cause they were friends with the people I worked for. They'd come and have dinner over there sometimes.

AC	But David Davis. The old David Davis that owned that the mansion.

?	And where was this mansion? In Bloomington? Where was this mansion?

AC	It's out on. I guess it's Jefferson Street.

MP	Yes.

AC	Davis Mansion.

MP	You were going to tell us something about him. What do you remember about him?

AC	Davis? Well, the only thing I remember is just what other people said because I wasn't ever connected with them. (pause)

MP	Now you were telling me-when did you get married?

AC	I got married in 1917. I met my husband in May, and I married him the next May.

MP	One year after, right? Could you tell me something about him and the kind of work that he did?

AC	Well he was a businessman. He had a club, and he had a restaurant. He had a barbershop, and he had a pool hall when I married him. So he learned me how to cook and how to serve.

MP	You cooked in the restaurant? You cooked the food? Tell us what kind of food did you have?

AC	We didn't have expensive food. We had neck-bones, pig feet, and beef stew and hamburger and steak.

MP	Did you have greens?

AC	No, we didn't have time for that?

MP	Barbecue ribs?

AC	No.

MP	No chittlins?

AC	No.

MP	Potato pies?

AC	No, I tell you we didn't have time for any fancy foods. We had good business. There was lots of people there every day.

MP	What were the hours that you were open?

AC	From seven till mid-night.

MP	Now you said your husband was the first Black to own and operate a restaurant in Bloomington, is that correct?

AC	Yes, that was before I married him. That was on South Main Street. He just had a restaurant and rooming house there.

MP	Now did they serve only Black people or were Blacks and whites served there.

AC	They served everybody.

MP	There were a lot of whites who went there.

AC	We had a lot of white trade. He was a friendly type man, and everyone knew him, white and Colored, and they come from all over town.

MP	When did it close? The year that it closed and tell us why it closed.

AC	The man who bought the building. The lease was up. He had a lease. I think he had a three-year lease or something. Made him close.

MP	What do you remember about what education was like for Blacks in Bloomington throughout your whole experience? Did you go? You didn't go to school in Bloomington.

AC	No.

MP	What do you remember about the schools-and Mr. Watson since we've talked about the early history of Mrs. Clark being here if you'd like to join in now and talk about education, fine-from what you remember.

LW	I don't remember anything about education. (speaks in a halting manner)

AC	Black and white all went to school together. But now at the University they couldn't stay in the dormitory up there, and they couldn't eat there either. They lived in private families. I had eight boys at one time when I lived in Normal. I started out with six, and I had eight and they all cooked, and I know if they could have had their meals at the University, they would have because some of them their parents was able to send them through. And the way they did, they made our a menu. They all bought food together, and two would buy food one week and next week two more would buy. Then one would do the cooking one-week, and two would do the dishes.

?	So it worked out nicely.

MP	What areas did they study? What did they study at Illinois University?

AC	What did they study. Well, they had different subjects.

MP	I thought you said one of them studied medicine or teaching.

AC	Well at that time the school was supposed to be all for teachers, but when they left there, they'd take up medicine and stuff like that. Now one of the boys who stayed with me I knew him all his life from Southern Illinois. I knew his parents, and he stayed with me. His mother didn't have too much to send him through, and I was down in Southern Illinois. They said he's smart, just come out of high school. I said to him I said, "Elroy are you planning to go to college?"He said, "No, I guess not. My mama ain't able to send me." I said, "Well if you really want to go, you can come up to Bloomington and work you're way through." So he said, "Well, I'll see what Mama say." That's the way he talked. So he went back home, and the next day he brought his mother over there.So she questioned me, and she said. "Well, I ain't able hardly to send him, but if he can work his way through it will be all right. He can go." I was working out a t the Soldiers and Sailors School. I got home one afternoon, and he was sitting on the porch. That was in August. I said, "Why did you come so early?" (laughter)He said, "I thought I'd come and find a job and get started. Then I can work my way through." So I fixed his meal. He'd eat when I eat, and things I that. I said, "The university is not very far, just a block from where I live."He said, "I think I'll walk up," and he walked up there, and he seen a man in an office. He didn't know who he was. He went in and told him what he wanted-the president of the university.

MP	Is that right? He knew how to go into the right office, didn't he?

AC	I forgot his now. I think it was (inaudible). Anyway, this president told him, "Now, I think you'll get in, and if you do get in come to me if there's anything you need or want." So he did. Anything he wanted he'd go to the president. And he worked his way through. He got a job in a restaurant, and he worked. And I don't know-is all this going on tape?

MP	Yes.

AC	Then he worked-got a job on the railroad. I didn't know it. Came in one day and said he got a job on the railroad. Then he got a job on a farm. He come in one day, and he said to me, "Mrs. Sanders do you like goat's milk?"I said, "I don't know. I never tasted no goat's milk." He had a little jar. He set it down on the table, and he said, "I got some goat's milk. You can have some of it if you want it." I said, "Elroy, where did you get goat's milk?" That's the way he told me. He said, "I got a job working on a farm. I've been out there working and they gave me some goat's milk." He said, "If you don't want it, I do." So I tasted it, and I said, "I don't think I care for it." Then he left and went to the army. I had eight boys, and they all left my house the same day.

MP	Is that right? To go into the army?

?	Did most of the young people work their way through college back then?

AC	They all did. Little jobs. Then when he come back from the army he went to school at Champaign. And when he left Champaign, he went to school at Meharry.

MP	Meharry Medical School in Tennessee, isn't it?

AC	Then when he left...

LW	What did you say about medical school? One of my girls is going to medical school.

MP	At Meharry?

LW	No, up in Chicago at Loyola.

MP	Loyola? Oh is that right? What year is she?

LW	Well, she's just beginning this summer?

MP	That's marvelous. How are you? (tape stops as someone enters)

MP	Now, if you would list-Ms Clark you start it-five of the most prominent Black people in Bloomington from the time the city began up to the 1960s.

AC	Dr. Covington.

MP	Do you know his first name?

AC	Not offhand.

MP	Dr. Covington was a medical, was a physician, right?

AC	I think his name was Gene.

MP	Gene Covington.

AC	He had two sons. One named Gene, and one named Girard. There used to be a lady here by the name of Partee (Miss Sarah). She was one of the real old settlers here. Mr. Green (Othello) and Miss Partee and Mrs. Green (Narcissus). They were real settlers.

MP	And what did they do?

AC	Miss Partee used to serve parties, and she was a member of the Methodist Church, and she taught Sunday School there for years and years. Mrs. Green was her sister, and Mr. Green was her brother-in-law. They all lived together (321 South Prairie).

MP	What do you remember specifically about the Greens?

AC	I think Mr. Green just did odd jobs. I don't think Mrs. Green worked.

MP	But they were prominent community members?

AC	Un-huh.

MP	Any others?

AC	My husband.

MP	Yes, Mr. Brown mentioned him last time that he was prominent. What was his full name?

AC	Isaac Joshua Beasley Sanders.

MP	Isaac Joshua Beasley Sanders. Prominent people usually have a lot of names.

AC	They named him after the doctor and everybody who was there when he was born.

MP	Where was he born?

AC	In Little Rock, Arkansas.

MP	When did he come to Bloomington?

AC	I don't know for sure. He was here in his younger days. He was here about fourteen or fifteen or something like that, I think.

MP	So he was a very prominent businessman in the community then. And Miss Anna Clark? We'll go to Mr. Brown, and if you think of some more. Mr. Brown, who would you say?

HB	Well, could you give a brief definition of what you are looking for?

MP	I would think of Black people who were prominent in terms of their education. That's one. In terms of what they did for the community as a whole. Another was whether or not they were powerful people, and everyone knew them, and they were able to get things done in the community. They made contributions to the community. If they were in government, in business.

LW	(Barely audible) Mr. Garrison.

MP	Mr. Garrison. Let's get his name out. Louis Garrison. It includes you, Mr. Henry Brown. I'll say that one. Get that one on tape-Mr. Henry Brown.

HB	There was a man here. I never met him. He probably passed on long before I came to this city. But in searching some church records, I found George W. Samuels. I thought that he was so keyed up in his contribution until when in searching some history of the history and compiling the first members of the church, I took it upon myself to name the book George W. Samuels. Classified I-which it was the first minute book. He always was present, and he was a businessman. He lived over here where Park Street Store is now. No, he lived on Main Street where-I think it was where the funeral home.

MP	Main and Empire?

HB	Main. I think that's it. One of those funeral homes was where he lived. He used to deal in livestock, hogs. He was a very businessman And he kept the church on a business footing. He created certain records that was needed. And the old records fill into my hands. In searching-there is another set of Samuels in the town today, but they don't seem to have-I've questioned them several times-any knowledge of George. He was just outstanding. Another man that made contributions to the city was Calimese, N. J. Calimese,

MP	Napoleon?

HB	Napoleon Calimese and his wife is still living, Louise. He was in charge of the Booker T. Washington where they sent the Black kids from all over the state. They came there. His wife did the cooking and mothering, and of course he was the main man. Down through the years I can remember when they used to have as many as twenty-three children at that home. He wasn't the founder of the home. Another lady, I think her name was Mrs. Barker. She was the founder. She used take these kids and keep them and get a help from the city. When the state took over, they built the home. Now it's torn down. Did you ever see it? It was torn down a couple of years ago, wasn't it? For no reason other than to bring a street through there and cross the I C G tracks. It was still well put together. I can remember when he had gardens, and he kept all those kids busy working. Most every kid who went through that home turned out to be all right.

?	Was it a very large place?

HB	The dormitory was divided into girls and boys. It could accommodate a total, I think, of twenty-four. Twelve girls and twelve boys. Of course, the living quarters and a dining area, and in the basement they had a kind of laundry facility. For years he took care of that place. All at once the state decided they needed a degree man. And he had no degree, but he raised those kids, and he kept them straight. Everybody in town can attest to that. They didn't run the street or run wild. But the state wanted someone with academic training, and he didn't have it of course. It was really a sad thing. They let him go. It went on and on, and pretty soon they consolidated with the Lucy Morgan Home. Booker Washington Home had the money.Some man died years before and willed a farm, and they got a lot of their money from the revenue of that farm. Of course, the United Way gave them very little money, and a lot of times people would question it. Why they got so little was they had some money on their own, and Lucy Morgan didn't have anything. So the board of directors of Lucy Morgan along with the board of directors of Booker T. Washington got together. I felt what they was going to do-they wanted that money. So they consolidated. The most ridiculous thing they closed this home. They sent all those kids away. They were supposed to consolidate and bring them together, and I think they took four.

MP	Mr. Brown were there any Black members on the board. Secondly, did the Black people in the community try to stop that merger.

HB	No, they didn't. There was Black members on the board. They seemed to went along with the idea. I was the one that raised all the cane, and I wasn't a part of it. So that old building was standing there. I went to Mr. Black. He was in charge. I forget-something for the government. And[ I] asked him to turn that building over to a board that I would get together and use it as a library for the vicinity. Everyone was welcome, but you didn't have to go downtown you know. And they could redo the basement, and they could make meeting places where different clubs could come in and meet. And it was a good idea he thought. But I told him now. And he told me we could only do it if we could assemble a lot of Black people together in a meeting. Word went out then and there. Nobody was for the idea that I had, and I lost. I told him right in front of them, "Now you know Mr. Black, I don't propose giving you one red-cent for this building. It's state-owned. It's all ready bought. Only thing I wanted to do was change the board of directors. And put somebody here to do a different project than what you have. Lot of people at the meeting wanted a center-a Black center. We had had one here, but it didn't produce.

MP	What was the center you had before Mr. Brown?

HB	It used to be where the city hall is today. That property was willed to Black people for a center. Mr. Tripp, at that time, he was the head of the center.

MP	Do you know the name of the center?

HB	I have known the name. It was a name. I just can't think of it. He was in charge of it. Somehow, they lost the center because city hall wanted it. That ground, the open ground facing city hall on the west side. There was a huge house there, and that's where the Black kids would meet, school age kids. And they would have parties and dances and whatnot.

MP	I think Mrs. Calimese told me something about that.

HB	So we lost that, and I said I wouldn't give him dime for the Booker T. Washington Home. Everybody else-most of them wanted a center again. I said, "The center had been here and failed." I wanted a library. Educational. I lost, but I raised so much sand. I grumbled, and I talked about it until one day they shut me up. They said, "We'll sell that house. The building and all the ground, Every thing that is there." And they had three or four lots with it. I said, "How much do you want for it?" They said, "$35,000." I knew it was a steal, but I couldn't get the money. I went all over town trying to borrow it. "What would you do with it?" I said, "Well, I'll give up my home. I know my home is worth $35,000." It was just across the street. They said, "No." I lost. And finally they sold it to a man that put in care for elderly people. And he made apartments, first and second floor. And he went on about a year, and the state hit him. I knew they would. They said, "Put in any elevator." The elevator cost more than what he had paid for his property. He kind of backed out. It went from one person to another, and they tried to make apartments out of it. The community just frowned on it because they never did get in the people that the community was satisfied. Now this is a mixed neighborhood you know. Use saw where I live. People never did like it. Finally, one year a boy had an apartment upstairs, and he killed a boy, rolled him up in a blanket, and pushed him under the bed. And he was there for a long time, two or three days. They found it. So that got a black eye to it. People stopped renting rooms there. They tried everything, and it just never panned out. So finally the city bought it. They tore it down to make that street. Calimese, I think, when he was there, he did a tremendous job with Black children. And got rid of him for one thing-no degree. At that time, everybody had to have a degree.

AC	It was age, too. See, they was both sixty-five years old.

HB	Sixty-five? Were they that old then? That was in the fifties, and maybe he was sixty- five, but it was talked around you know that they wanted a degree man.

AC	They was getting too old to keep kids.

HB	They wasn't too old. Back in the fifties. That's been thirty years ago. Mrs. Calimese is about ninety so she might have been around sixty, but she wasn't too old. But anyway that's what happened. So I would favor him as one of the...

MP	I think you said Mr. Calimese was also a barber.

HB	No, his brother that had a barbershop in Normal.

AC	He was in with his brother.

HB	He was in but his brother.

MP	owned the shop?

AC	He and his brother owned the shop together, and after he got the job, his brother stayed.

HB	So when I came here, his brother owned the barbershop. I had another one in mind. Maybe I'll think of it.

MP	What about this inventor?

HB	Yes, somebody mentioned that, but I had no knowledge of it. You must remember that Hoagland.

AC	His name was Hoagland. He invented Oil of Gladness.

HB	Some kind of cleaning?

AC	A kind of polish. (inaudible), and they called it Oil of Gladness.

HB	When you get to business in Bloomington, it goes way down.

AC	He was a minister-Hoagland.

MP	So there weren't a lot of prominent Blacks involved in business, right? Any Black politicians?

HB	I would still go back to Calimese and Aquilla Smith.

MP	Quilla Smith?

HB	Yes, that's Lester's father. They seemed to be associated very strongly with the Republican Party. I remember when Girard Covington-now that was the son of this Dr. Covington. He was number one policeman. He was Black, and he died. Well, they had three Black people attached to the police department when I came. One was called "Sug" Thomas. One was named Williams. The other was Girard Covington. So one of those left, and they wanted me to take the job to take the job of policeman. I told them "no" because the police age limit was thirty-two, and I was thirty-three, and I was the kind of guy... But I was one year too old. Then they replaced that Black person with a white patrolman. We begin to lose ground you know.

?	Why was he replaced?

HB	I think he retired. I mean when they tried to get me, it was Williams, Eugene Williams. He retired, and they wouldn't replace him. They asked me if I wanted to go for it. I told them "no." I was too old. Then they replaced him with a white patrolmen. That left two, and then Girard died suddenly. I told Aguilla Smith at the cemetery, too, I said, "You politicians better get busy here or you're going to lose that position." He said, "Why is that?" He called me Brownie all the time. I said, "I think their not going to put no Black person there. You better get ready." So he called Calimese and sure enough the next day they went down, and they had already made arrangements to appoint a white person. And I was just in time, and I said, "You go to the Republican Party head. You pay dues. Let's see what you can do." So they did, and you know they stopped that appointment, and they said, "Do you know somebody." And I said, "Marvin Thomas. He told me that he was already to go for it. He had a passed the examination and everything." So they told me the next day to see if Marvin wanted the job. I went over to talk to him. He was living on Mill Street then. And he said, "Yes, he wanted it." And the next day they appointed him. Just did get in. So Marvin Thomas got the job. And I gave credit to Aquilla Smith and Napoleon Calimese. They were the ones who made the contact. So there's some degree of prominence because they were able to prevail with an influence. I don't know how they did it. Later on I was to be appointed to the board of the fire and police commission. Course, my resignation is in now. I have served on it six years.

?	I'll bet that's very interesting.

HB	It is interesting, but I've get to the place now...

AC	I guess Marvin [Thomas] had one of the biggest funerals-I guess the biggest funeral they ever had in Bloomington.

HB	I kind of always thought Covington was the biggest funeral I ever seen.

AC	Marvin was the biggest. They had police here and soldiers from different places.

HB	Yes, they did. But the funeral procession down Main Street for Girard Covington I thought was the largest that I had witnessed. He was number one police. I remember Father Bowman [Reverend F.O.H.] of the Episcopal Church that's out on East Washington Street gave the eulogy because he was a member of that church. All through the service he kept mentioning "police number one" on the force. I looked at the cars as they came over the viaduct going south on Main Street when you get to the top of the hill as far back as you could see there was cars. Police-it looked like every police squad car was in it. The fire department and everybody turned out. And they had the funeral at Saint Matthews Church. Now Marvin had a tremendous funeral, too.

MP	When I came here in 1969, there was a Black man who worked in the central post office in downtown Bloomington. What was his name?

HB	That was Noble Thomas. That was a good job he had because he was on the window. He was number one.

MP	Was he the first Black person to have that job?

HB	He was the first one that I've seen at the window. He had been there a long time. Now, William Vail and Noble worked together. William Vail became city manager of this town, but he started out at the post office. They worked the window together, and I got acquainted with Vail then. I can't remember any other that worked the window, can you?

AC	Mr. Anson. He carried mail. Luther Anson in Normal.

End Side A

Side B

MP	So she was the first Black person who held a prominent elected position.

HB	As far as I know. I don't know of any other Black person that was elected to a position. H. Clay Tate writes that in the history of McLean County. One thing that stood out and I told Eva about it, but I don't think it ever registered with her. During that time I was a member of the school board advisory council. You served your duties for three years. At the end of three years, you had to step down. But they did give you a certificate or citation for the service you had rendered. When it come my time to get my certificate, she was president. It was hers to present it to me. And I told her I said, "This is history that nobody will record. A Black president presenting a certificate to a Black person. You will probably never witness that in your lifetime. It may be a hundred years before circumstances will create such a culmination." I still think I'm right.

MP	Did you get a photograph of that?

HB	No, I told her, "You should have had someone here to get a photograph." I was the only Black receiving. I wasn't the only one that ever served on the board advisory council. I don't mean that, but receiving that particular award at that time. You see how different events can bring things to pass that is historical. I said, "This is your hour. The privilege to present this." Of course, before she went on the school board I didn't know of anybody who had been on the school board. I think Ruby Edwards had been a member, but she had never been the president of the school board. That was an honor. And later on she went and became a city council member. She served that two years.

AC	What had Ruby done?

HB	She was a very prominent, Ruby Edwards. She had connections with the State and Federal-Colored Women's Club.

MP	She worked with the National Association of Colored Women's Clubs. What's her name, Ruby Edwards?

HB	She was quite prominent I would say among women, but you first asked about men. I would say these two. I don't know about Mrs. Brent. Mrs. Brent worked in high places, but I don't know about her influence.

AC	She was voted Woman of the Year at one time in Bloomington.

MP	That's Lucinda Brent Posey.

HB	Posey. We always called her Brent because she was Brent for so long, but it was Posey. I would say she prominent.

AC	She was Woman of the Year when she worked at Brokaw Hospital.

HB	She did some kind of office work out there. She also worked out at Soldiers and Sailors Home, too. But Ruby Edwards, Eva Jones, and Lucinda Posey were prominent in high places with influence. If they couldn't do things for you, they knew somebody who could, and this is influence. I would say those three women aside from Calimese and Aquilla Smith, the men. I had another man who escaped my mind. We've had a woman do things at Sunnyside Center.

AC	What about John Ford?

HB	I knew his mother. Was that his mother? Mrs. Ford or Mother Ford?

AC	He was a policeman at one time, a real old man.

HB	I don't remember him.

AC	Went to the Methodist Church.

HB	I remember his mother, Mother Ford. We had a member at Mount Pisgah Baptist Church, Mother Ford and Mother Taylor. They used to go together all the time.

AC	No, John Ford belonged to the Methodist Church. At one-time years ago he was a policemen before Girard and them.

HB	Maybe this isn't.

AC	At that time was quite... He owned all them houses across from Union Church. He lived out on East Street.

MP	He was a businessman also, would you say?

AC	No, he wasn't a businessman. He worked at the schools. He was a janitor at the schools, in years later. But in younger life he was a policemen.Jake Dean was a policeman at one time. I don't think they were so prominent. They were just police. At that time, police wasn't too prominent.

MP	I understand what you're saying, but at the time it was difficult for Blacks to get those positions. So there's something significant about that. Whenever, anyone did get something, it became something outstanding.

HB	I was going to tell you about another woman who was responsible for the Sunnyside Center. That's Melba Moore. She was one who always thought there was a need for Black kids on that West Side. She kept working and working until they did build a center. I got away from the people, and for years no one mentioned Melba until two years ago I petitioned the Human Relations Council of Bloomington-Normal that she be given the Martin Luther King Award. It was such an outstanding idea that even Irvin right here wrote a letter to me and told me how glad he was that I had remembered. You know you sit down, and you remember people who have been forgotten. So they gave her an award. I think that particular achievement should go along with other Black women's accomplishments. That center is operating today. She was the one who did the leg work, groundwork. Got down and moved the city and moved everybody until they finally got that done. Sunnyside Center.

MP	Mr. Watson, what list of prominent Black people would you come up with?

LW	I could only recall Mr. Louis Garrison. He was a plumber. And Mr. Brown That's about all I can remember right now. Just those two. Mr. Brown and Mr. Garrison as plumbing contractors.

MP	Do you know who the first Black teacher was in the public schools in Bloomington?

HB	Between two women, I think, and I don't know which was first. It was either Garrison or Nicholas. Which one was first? Louise? Garrison had a son. He was a plumber too. He is still a plumber. He had a wife, and she became a schoolteacher. I think she teaches out on the East Side. I think its at Oakland School [Stevenson]. I think she teaches there now. And then there's a woman, Louise Nicholas. She teaches over here at this school at Lee and Mill Street. I can't think of the name of that school on the West Side. Somewhere over here, she teaches. Those are the ones I remember. One was before the other, but I can't think which one... I rather think, it was Garrison, but I can't think of her first name. [Theresa]

AC	Miss [Elizabeth] Wheatley,

HB	Now, that was before me. When did she teach?

AC	She taught at Washington School on the East Side. East Washington Street.

HB	Wheatley? Wheatley? I think I remember that name.

AC	I don't know whether she was the first or not. It hasn't been too long that she taught there. She was a sister of Cora Smith. Miss Wheatley taught in Michigan and Springfield. See taught a few years here. Then she taught in Normal, too.

HB	It hasn't been too many years that Blacks have been in the school system.

?	How were they received when they first started getting involved?

HB	I guess all right. There is one thing about Bloomington. I always say this. That during the sixties when everything was being overturned, you know, Bloomington just changed. I don't know why. There wasn't any big fuss in this town. We didn't throw any bricks or anything. It just changed. When they appointed these people, I never heard of anything. But I do remember when the former ambassador at the United Nations who went to ISU. Help me think of his name.

MP	McHenry.

HB	McHenry. He was a student at ISU, and of course he underwent severe segregation you know. He couldn't do this, and he couldn't do that. Nobody knew that he would ever turn out to be ambassador to the United Nations for the United States. That was quite an achievement.

MP	Do you remember him when he was a student here?

HB	I very faintly remember him because he was a student and...

MP	He didn't lived in the dorms did he?

HB	No, no. Was you there when Mr. Hammitt out to the Martin Luther King Awards? Remember when he was talking.... the man who was the recipient of the award. He was a former councilman in Normal, and he was talking about that very thing because he was closer to it than I was. He was there, and he knew. He had to help McHenry get a place to stay. He couldn't stay on the campus.

?	And what year was this?

HB	That must have been at the turn of the decade. Fifty-sixty, somewhere in there. They just opened up that campus, I guess, maybe twenty years. How long have you been out there?

MP	Sixty-nine. Since sixty-nine.

HB	You've been there since sixty-nine. That would be about sixteen years. I think twenty years ago that campus was closed.

MP	It was probably around the sixties when they opened.

HB	But it was about the mid-sixties when the campus was opened to Blacks. You didn't live in the dormitory. Wasn't a part of the faculty or nothing. But McHenry, he really turned out. And Normal. That school should be proud that they did get a person that went through school that went that high.

AC	That's the way it was when I kept my students. I give my room to two boys from Chicago, and they both turned out good. One of them works for the national association and he's one of the head men. The other one is an artist in Saint Louis. They had been going to school, but they was turned out of there home where. Sometimes the women couldn't get along with them. They was going to have to go home.

MP	They came with you, and you straightened them out. (laughs)

AC	I let them stay there.

?	What year did they let `em move into the dorms then?

HB	It was somewhere in the sixties. Around the mid-sixties. Between sixty and sixty-five. I don't remember when they started moving in. Now you came there in sixty-nine. They started moving in before they started appointing people to the faculty.

AC	When they started to burn those fires in the big set of towns like Detroit and different places, then they began to open up.

MP	It was around that time.

HB	But we here in Bloomington never... It was all over the country, and I think television played an important part in shaking people to their senses. This is wrong, and you know it's wrong.

AC	And Martin Luther King got killed. That opened up a lot.

HB	That was in [19]68. This television news went all the way into Europe. In their homes... The man in Mississippi, I think he's the father of this prominent man in Carter's Administration.

MP	Young?

HB	No, this is a white man. Greenwood, Mississippi. I think Carter. Hodding Carter. Hodding Carter is from Greenwood, Mississippi, and I think his father was a publisher of the newspaper, and I read a statement where he said, "My God. They ask for so little." It was the Montgomery bus boycott. They said just don't put a curtain in the bus and make us sit behind it. And he said, "They asked for so little, and they're going to win this fight." But they didn't pay him any attention. And I think Hodding Carter is-I'm not sure that's his father because he run the newspaper. Then another statement he made I read. Bull Conner this policemen in Alabama said he'll straighten it out. "All you got to do is crack a few 'niggers' heads." Then this same man said, "You're wrong this is a new 'nigger.'" So this thing just went on and spreaded and Watts. They had this tremendous burning affair, and after Martin Luther King assassinated, they had them all over. That was [19]68, and the next year you came. But we didn't burn anything here. I don't want you to get a false impression. We didn't burn anything or throw any rocks. I guess the people just came to their senses, and responded and said, "This is over." And we began to move up, and they broke down everything.

MP	Did you want to say something Mr. Watson?

LW	I was just thinking, like a lawyer up in Chicago, how does he survive? Does he get work from people in the cities or with people who have things, that own land and buildings in the Loop area. A Black man doesn't own anything in the Loop area in Chicago. But here in Bloomington and Normal, according to Mrs. Clark they owned things like land.

MP	That's an important point you are making.

LW	We haven't advanced enough ourselves in order to do these things, to own land any place. It looks like to me that they could-just a little bit at the time.

MP	That's an important point you are making.

HB	That brings into mind that other person I was talking about. Mr. Richard Bell. Now, his success has been a businessman. I don't know of any other kind of contribution he made to society as a whole. But he is the only Black person I know of that owned this rich Illinois farm. I think he owns 160 acres today.

MP	Is it in the McLean County area?

HB	It's about ten miles west of Bloomington. Richard Bell. And he was an auto body mechanic, and he made good there. And he bought a piece of farm and every time he got a chance to buy adjacent to it, he'd buy it. I would say his farm is worth half a million or more. He's the only person. They always say the question is always the land. If you don't own land, you're nobody. And he owns quite a bit.

MP	You know Mr. Brown one of the things that impressed me is you said when you came here in the early years, Black people could not rent houses, and therefore you had to buy them. And as a result of that quite a few Black people in this community do own property. Not as much as Mr. Richard Bell does, but quite a few Black people do own. I think, you're saying that's not quite true in Chicago, is that right?

LW	They own little plots of land, but not any in the Loop area where it costs so much. If Blacks and whites were included in everything in purse then this wouldn't have happened. Somebody's going to have to give.

HB	Well, they had Woodland in Chicago. Blacks owned that whole park like area. Blacks did and they lost that. Now, I read in the reports that when white people went out of the city to the suburbs, and Blacks had huge tracts of land. and now the white people are coming back out of the suburb into the city. You see, we're not putting one and one together to make two. We're just chasing them around. And if we would stop and make good of what we've got maybe we could gain a toehold. But we won't do it. Instead we want to keep chasing them around. They went to the suburbs, and we went out there. And now they're coming back to the city. It's just foolish to work in the Chicago and live in the suburbs. Now, I've got a daughter that couldn't get a job nowhere but in the Chicago area. We sent her to Hyde Park, New York to culinary institution. She was just going to die if she couldn't learn how to cook. When she came out, she got these fast food jobs here, but she wanted to further her education through experience. So she went to Best Western. That's where she is today. But she lives with her sister in Chicago Heights, and that's an eighty mile round trip. And she's worn out her car.Forty miles each way. And I say you're stupid, you know. And she says, "I can't get what I want. There's no place up there that I can get an apartment." And her car broke down the other week. And I loaned her my car for three weeks, and she added a thousand miles to my car. And it was just back and forth five days a week. Forty miles each way. That comes to 400 miles, and in three week's time she's added 1,200 miles on my car. Her car that we bought for her a little over two years ago has almost 100,000 miles on it. What I tell her is soon as you pay for your car, you got to go buy a new one. That's what white people done figured out who live in these suburbs and work in Chicago. It not only takes too much of my money, but it takes too much of my time. An hour and a half two ways each day and that's three hours that I could be sitting down with my family.

MP	I tell you what we are going to do. We are going to... (tape is turned off)

End Side B

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